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The Pope is going...going....gone!

#1 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:13 PM

And is it any wonder. Religions currently are not that popular. Fanatics perhaps say this is not so....but it is clear that this is so. Firstly, the concept of Hell is a joke. The concept of the Risen Christ is nothing but a myth.And so it goes.The present Pope is doing something which has not been done for 700 years. This "rarity" shows you that there is something not right. Many are saying that he is ill...but that is a whitewash as many popes before him were ill and extremely old and remained in that position until they passed away
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#2 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:40 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 12 February 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

And is it any wonder. Religions currently are not that popular. Fanatics perhaps say this is not so....but it is clear that this is so. Firstly, the concept of Hell is a joke. The concept of the Risen Christ is nothing but a myth.And so it goes.The present Pope is doing something which has not been done for 700 years. This "rarity" shows you that there is something not right. Many are saying that he is ill...but that is a whitewash as many popes before him were ill and extremely old and remained in that position until they passed away

Perhaps because they were in better health than he?
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#3 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:57 PM

So Roderick in 700 years the only Pope who was in worst health than any other in that time was the current one. Don't you find that a tad........incredible?
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#4 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostRoderick, on 12 February 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Perhaps because they were in better health than he?

So in a time span of 700 years......all the other popes before him were in better health.
Don't you find the time element involved a tad......weird?
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#5 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:51 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 12 February 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

So Roderick in 700 years the only Pope who was in worst health than any other in that time was the current one. Don't you find that a tad........incredible?

Not at all, there is also the personal perception of one's health to take into account, maybe many of the earlier Popes decided to carry on regardless of their health.
Perhaps Benedict has been diagnosed with an incurable illness and doesn't wish to go out in an increasingly debilitated condition; who knows?

Take the positive view and ask why so few Popes have chosen to resign in the almost 2,000 years of the Papacy; now there is something to wonder at.
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#6 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:03 AM

View PostRoderick, on 13 February 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Not at all, there is also the personal perception of one's health to take into account, maybe many of the earlier Popes decided to carry on regardless of their health.
Perhaps Benedict has been diagnosed with an incurable illness and doesn't wish to go out in an increasingly debilitated condition; who knows?

Take the positive view and ask why so few Popes have chosen to resign in the almost 2,000 years of the Papacy; now there is something to wonder at.

Well I suppose that would be a position which would make it difficult to resign from.
As far as incurable illness is concerned, today with the great progress in medicine there is so few of these that it would be unbelievable for him to resign over this.Nearly all illnesses are curable today....or if not curable, treatable including cancer. In a few years, and this is predicted, we will be living well over the 100 years mark and people will only pass away from accidents
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#7 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:44 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 13 February 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Well I suppose that would be a position which would make it difficult to resign from.
As far as incurable illness is concerned, today with the great progress in medicine there is so few of these that it would be unbelievable for him to resign over this.Nearly all illnesses are curable today....or if not curable, treatable including cancer. In a few years, and this is predicted, we will be living well over the 100 years mark and people will only pass away from accidents

Come back to the real world, there are plenty of absolutely bloody nasty ways to die a lingering and painful and disgusting death.
That's why there are advocates for euthanasia.
My wife is a Registered Nurse and I do hospital visits as a representative of an ex-servicemen's association and what I see and hear is totally at odds with your views.
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#8 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

Well from our longevity statistics it seems that we are living much longer as we discover how to treat diseases like diabetes. I saw on TV the other day that diabetes treatment soon will consist of one injection per annum
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#9 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:37 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 13 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Well from our longevity statistics it seems that we are living much longer as we discover how to treat diseases like diabetes. I saw on TV the other day that diabetes treatment soon will consist of one injection per annum

That's one; how about rheumatoid arthritis, Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease, to name but three that are far from curable?
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#10 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:54 AM

Arthritis is not a life threatening disease Roderick. I have suffered from Osteoarthritis for over 20 years. When the doctor x- rayed my spine at 45 years years old do you know he said "if I did not know your age and had a look at this x-ray I would have thought that this is an x-ray of a 70 year old" And the diagnoses was that it will get worse as I age. I am now 68 years old...and it is worse but I manage it pretty well mostly with exercise where I power walk approx 40 km a week, watch what I eat, do not smoke (not smoked for some 30 years) etc. I know it is worse as I a feel some pain which I never felt when I was 45 years old....but it is manageable
As for the other diseases you mentioned I believe that they are treatable with medication which extends lives and the quality of life immensely
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#11 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:51 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 14 February 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Arthritis is not a life threatening disease Roderick. I have suffered from Osteoarthritis for over 20 years. When the doctor x- rayed my spine at 45 years years old do you know he said "if I did not know your age and had a look at this x-ray I would have thought that this is an x-ray of a 70 year old" And the diagnoses was that it will get worse as I age. I am now 68 years old...and it is worse but I manage it pretty well mostly with exercise where I power walk approx 40 km a week, watch what I eat, do not smoke (not smoked for some 30 years) etc. I know it is worse as I a feel some pain which I never felt when I was 45 years old....but it is manageable
As for the other diseases you mentioned I believe that they are treatable with medication which extends lives and the quality of life immensely

Then you are lucky and I sincerely hope that you continue to manage the disease.
However I have seen people much younger than you who are almost completely immobilized by rheumatism.

But be that as it may, the man is 85 and if he feels that he can't carry on because of his age and failing health then I'd give that statement complete credibility, he's hardly leaving to take up a passion for cycling and entering the next Tour de France.
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#12 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:30 AM

I tell you what Roderick, when you are 85 you are on the road towards the end and I suppose it will be worthwhile retiring unlike his predecessors over 700 years. There is another aspect to this as well. This Pope is not your usual Italian product...the usual outcome. True the one before him was Polish. However this Pope is German and the Germans look at life intelligently ( I think it's a trait of the nationality) and it is quite intelligent to retire rather to linger on in a position perhaps in ill health
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#13 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:36 PM

View PostRoderick, on 14 February 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Then you are lucky and I sincerely hope that you continue to manage the disease.
However I have seen people much younger than you who are almost completely immobilized by rheumatism.

But be that as it may, the man is 85 and if he feels that he can't carry on because of his age and failing health then I'd give that statement complete credibility, he's hardly leaving to take up a passion for cycling and entering the next Tour de France.

I agree with this. Another recent example is the decision by the elderly Queen of the Netherlands to abdicate in favour of the Crown Prince.

It's probably the beginning of a trend where people like the Pope or the reigning monarchs of royal families will no longer be expected to remain in the role until death. While it is traditional to remain in such a role until death, this is one tradition that would serve the governed peoples better if it was discarded. If a monarch or pontiff is no longer able to perform the duties of the role due to ailing health or mental incapacity, let them be replaced in an orderly way, as is the case with any other profession.

In the Catholic church, a pope is traditionally assessed as being fit to remain the Pope if he is able to respond to three taps on his forehead with a small hammer. Otherwise he's deemed to be dead and it's time for a replacement. The test for the pontiff's health and his ability to serve in the role needs to be more rigorous than that. (One day we may see a female Pope, but not for a long while yet, given the Catholic Church's resistance to ordaining female priests.)
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#14 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:08 PM

Cardinal Pell criticises Pope's decision to quit

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Australia's most senior Catholic George Pell has criticised the departing Pope Benedict, saying his decision to retire could set a precedent which may be a problem for future leaders.
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#15 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostBam, on 28 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:


Funny, I see Cardinal Pell's reported statement as being supportive of the Pope rather than critical, his main criticism is of some Papal Advisers.
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#16 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

Yes everybody expects these positions to be occupied by the one chosen to be permanent until death! But I am of the view that you have the right to refuse these positions (they are not that cracked up to be)initially. And if there is no refusal but acceptance then you have the right to resign when and as you deem fit.
Not everyone likes adulation...and some may find it intrusive (in their lives). I am one of those.And Pope Benedict may be another
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#17 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:05 AM

Benedict XVI's papacy officially ends

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Pope Benedict XVI has left the Vatican as head of the Catholic Church for the last time, becoming only the second pontiff to resign because he felt unable to fulfil his duties in the Church's 2,000-year history.

Pope Benedict left the Vatican in a helicopter and travelled to Castel Gandolfo, where he will spend the next few months.

At precisely 8:00pm (local time), his resignation came into effect.

He will continue to be known as Benedict XVI, with the new title of Emeritus Pope, although he will still be addressed as Your Holiness Benedict XVI.
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#18 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostRoderick, on 28 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Funny, I see Cardinal Pell's reported statement as being supportive of the Pope rather than critical, his main criticism is of some Papal Advisers.

The article may have been a little imprecise in its wording. Pell was critical of the decision, not the Pope, but the criticism is more to do with the precedent than the decision itself.

Technically, a Pope can be any Catholic male, and he can resign the Papacy whenever he wishes. In practice, the role is governed by tradition as well as the rules; every pope in the last 600 years has been one of the cardinals, and almost all popes have stayed in the role until death. Traditions can change, however. Pope John Paul I dispensed with an elaborate coronation ceremony and introduced a simpler papal inauguration in its place, a ceremony that was also chosen by his successors John Paul II and Benedict XVI. It is possible that future popes will also be more likely to resign from the papacy if ill health makes it too difficult to fulfil their duties. It is a sound idea to destigmatise papal resignations so that future popes remain effective in the role.
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#19 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:24 AM

You know many of you have not, I bet, thought of the following. Did you know that once you become "famous" and then have second thoughts perhaps after so many years, you may be of the view that fame is intruding in your life.....and you have had it!
You then cannot become "unfamous".....you remain famous for life even under retirement from the position you have become famous in.So in effect the intrusion will remain in retirement.The position of Pope is one such position. There is only one way. Death!
This is why there are numerous "Elvis sightings"......and Jim Morrison (who is also supposed to be dead)sightings etc.
Who knows????
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#20 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:55 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 04 March 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

You know many of you have not, I bet, thought of the following. Did you know that once you become "famous" and then have second thoughts perhaps after so many years, you may be of the view that fame is intruding in your life.....and you have had it!
You then cannot become "unfamous".....you remain famous for life even under retirement from the position you have become famous in.So in effect the intrusion will remain in retirement.The position of Pope is one such position. There is only one way. Death!
This is why there are numerous "Elvis sightings"......and Jim Morrison (who is also supposed to be dead)sightings etc.
Who knows????

True, but one can become infamous; not that that makes one any less famous. :lol:
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