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Microsoft Vigilanteeism!

#1 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:52 AM

I've just changed my old second hand hard drive to a brand new larger 500GB hard drive on my old desktop with WinXP OS. At 60 dollars it was a bargain.I have another (modern) laptop with Win 7
I have the Win XP disk which legitimately purchased some time ago complete with the product key
But get this. Nevertheless Microsoft requires me that everytime I load the WinXP program from this disk onto this computer, the program has to be "activated" by it within 30 days, otherwise after that it will not work.
So in effect everytime I format my hard drive (due to viruses and this can be often), or change my hard drive (due to it being defective) even though I purchased the product I am still under obligation to the manufacturer (Microsoft) for it to work. I am attempting to do the usual and "activate" it on the internet to no avail because I am on dial up. It's a bloody nuisance.A 'baloon' keeps popping up telling me that I have 29 days left for activation. This is on a product which I purchased mind you.....and it's an outrage!
1) This policy would be against any existing consumer law (State or Federal) as their basic principle is that a consumer has the right for a product which s/he purchases to be in a contiunous working order and at least not due to any deliberate action by the manufacturer.
Microsoft is actually admitting that it gives 30 days, and after that the product will not work
This is in effect an admittance of a violation of consumer laws.
2) "In order to prevent piracy". This is the reason given for all this.
Microsoft has to learn that prevention of piracy or violation of copyright is "none of it's business" This is a policy of vigilanteeism. There are international/national laws and law enforcement to prevent this and any corporation which attempts to supersede this concept is clearly in error.Or...is Microsoft doing their job now?
The CTTT of NSW will "love" this case in the event that I am unable to 'activate' the program within the 30 day limit and stops working.
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#2 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:36 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 20 February 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I've just changed my old second hand hard drive to a brand new larger 500GB hard drive on my old desktop with WinXP OS. At 60 dollars it was a bargain.I have another (modern) laptop with Win 7
I have the Win XP disk which legitimately purchased some time ago complete with the product key
But get this. Nevertheless Microsoft requires me that everytime I load the WinXP program from this disk onto this computer, the program has to be "activated" by it within 30 days, otherwise after that it will not work.


What a load of tripe DC.

1. Read the original licence agreement (tedious though it might be).

2. Assuming you bought it with a new computer, the licence is not transferable to another computer (in other words, you become a software pirate if you do just that).

3. You can phone up Microsoft on the provided 1800 number to activate it in the absence of a working internet connection

4. Alternatively, you can wait for Not Bloody Needed fibre to arrive at your door :)
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#3 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

So you do not agree with me Icey that it is a consumer issue once it stops working?
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#4 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:01 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 20 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

So you do not agree with me Icey that it is a consumer issue once it stops working?


Suppliers cannot hand hold you through all your computer problems, and most especially software vendors when you have a hardware problem.

Product activation remains fair game albeit a minor inconvenience. Even an unfinished library book needs to be renewed from time to time.
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#5 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:16 AM

Yes I have just checked and I am wrong. Consumers beware. If a manufacturer/retailer sets out their Terms and Conditions and the consumer is made aware of these terms and conditions then that consumer has no leg to stand on
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#6 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:44 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 21 February 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Yes I have just checked and I am wrong. Consumers beware. If a manufacturer/retailer sets out their Terms and Conditions and the consumer is made aware of these terms and conditions then that consumer has no leg to stand on


Yes that's right. The consumer has no leg to stand other than to choose a alternative supplier.
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#7 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:00 PM

View Posticey, on 21 February 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Yes that's right. The consumer has no leg to stand other than to choose a alternative supplier.

Thank you Icey for telling me in hindsight. So you knew the law when I did not.
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#8 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:24 AM

View Posticey, on 20 February 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

2. Assuming you bought it with a new computer, the licence is not transferable to another computer (in other words, you become a software pirate if you do just that).

No - what really happens is that if you transfer a valid licence to another machine, Microsoft assumes that you are a "software pirate". Just because some large corporation uses software to accuse someone does not make it true.
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#9 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostBam, on 22 February 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

No - what really happens is that if you transfer a valid licence to another machine, Microsoft assumes that you are a "software pirate". Just because some large corporation uses software to accuse someone does not make it true.

This issue is quite "muddy" and it does really have to be tested in court, but who has the financial resources to do so.On the other hand if these are the "terms and conditions" then we as consumers have no leg to stand on. There is such a thing however as an "unconscionable agreement"...that is the agreement has to be fair or a court may find against it.And this issue clearly must come under this category
The following is how I inquired with Microsoft on this issue.
I asked:
Say I purchase 8 computers with defective hard drives where I'd have to change each hard drive and re-install a Windows 8 (the latest) operating system on each of the 8 computers.Now here comes the crunch.
Can I purchase only one disk (which costs some hundreds of dollars each) and install the same one on each of the 8 computers? The response was a definite.....no . I'd have to purchase 8 disks one for each of the computers I have at home as if I only purchase one disk and install that program on each of the 8 computers this would be copying????.
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#10 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

View PostBam, on 22 February 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

No - what really happens is that if you transfer a valid licence to another machine, Microsoft assumes that you are a "software pirate". Just because some large corporation uses software to accuse someone does not make it true.


The so called "valid licence" may cease to exist when you transfer it to another machine, most particularly if you leave the original copy in operation.

Microsoft's T's & C's regarding original equipment manufacturer (OEM) licensing have chopped and changed over the years. You can get a feel for the confusion in this article albeit over three years old.

The following is presumably current.

Microsoft said:

An end user who acquires software is acquiring the right to use that software. End users don't "own" the software, which is intellectual property and is generally "owned" by its developers. The right to use the software is governed by the End User Software Licence Terms—which, in the case of OEM System Builder product, is an agreement between the system builder and the end user. The End User Software Licence Terms can typically be found within the software product, and an end user must accept the End User Software Licence Terms before running the software.


In the same way that a CD/DVD can be sold with express limitations against playing them in public, so it is that the right to use software can be restricted to the vendor's stipulation.

Quote

If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect, then a new computer has been created. Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred to the new computer, and the licence of new operating system software is required. If the motherboard is replaced because it is defective, you do not need to acquire a new operating system license for the PC as long as the replacement motherboard is the same make/model or the same manufacturer's replacement/equivalent, as defined by the manufacturer's warranty.
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#11 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:34 PM

Will you all stop in complicating issues as usual. It's very simple. You have to use one installation disk per machine. That is it! How much does say a Windows 8 installation disk cost 200 -300 dollars each.
So if you say have 5 machines at home without a Windows installation and you need to install a Windows 8 operating system on each one.....then you have to purchase one for each machine. 5 separate disks for 5 separate machines which will work out...say 1000 - 1500 dollars.And this is Microsoft's Terms & Conditions. I am of the view that this can be challenged in court on the grounds that it is an "unconscionable agreement" And there is a huge chance that this will be legally overturned
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#12 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:42 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 23 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Will you all stop in complicating issues as usual. It's very simple. You have to use one installation disk per machine. That is it! How much does say a Windows 8 installation disk cost 200 -300 dollars each.


Not usually $200-300 but it depends on the variant.

Is it your belief that the cost for Microsoft to provide an operating system such as Win 7 amounts to the expense of CD/DVD production, say, a buck or two a piece?

If this is your belief, then I see what's driving your angst!
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#13 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:16 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 23 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Will you all stop in complicating issues as usual. It's very simple. You have to use one installation disk per machine. That is it! How much does say a Windows 8 installation disk cost 200 -300 dollars each.
So if you say have 5 machines at home without a Windows installation and you need to install a Windows 8 operating system on each one.....then you have to purchase one for each machine. 5 separate disks for 5 separate machines which will work out...say 1000 - 1500 dollars.And this is Microsoft's Terms & Conditions. I am of the view that this can be challenged in court on the grounds that it is an "unconscionable agreement" And there is a huge chance that this will be legally overturned

I hate to nitpick here, but it's not a physical disk that you have to purchase for each machine but a separate software licence. You can use the same physical disk to install on any number of machines, as long as you have a valid activation code for each machine that will be different for each.
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#14 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:39 AM

View PostBam, on 23 February 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

I hate to nitpick here, but it's not a physical disk that you have to purchase for each machine but a separate software licence. You can use the same physical disk to install on any number of machines, as long as you have a valid activation code for each machine that will be different for each.


With every valid installation disk purchased you will get a "product key number" consisting of 25 figures with a mixture of numerals and letters. If you do not "punch in" this product key when prompted (during the installation) it will not install. It's as simple as that. The so-called "license" is a Microsoft invention which is gulling you for profitable purposes (for Microsoft of course)
However although it is possible to install that same operating system on multiple computers as all you have to do is to install on as many computers as you like and when prompted you just have to "punch in" the "product key number" to continue installing properly, Microsoft's Terms and Conditions (which you have to comply with) prohibits you from doing this (once again for profitable purposes) by stating that one operating system for every computer. This means in effect that if you have say....10 computers in a household and you'd want to install Windows on each one....you'd have to purchase 10 separate disks with 10 separate "product key numbers" for each computer. At 200-300 dollars a pop for each disk this works out at around 2000-3000 dollars for the whole compliment.
Now I know that under law any agreement (whether commercial or domestic) has to be fair. You just cannot make up an agreement as you deem fit and expect other parties to comply with it.Therefore it is permitted to sue on the grounds of an agreement being "unconscionable" (claiming that the agreement is unfair same as that with the banks) and this sounds as though that it is quite unfair with the financial benefits being reaped by Microsoft. All you need is the financial resources to do it
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#15 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:47 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 24 February 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

The so-called "license" is a Microsoft invention which is gulling you for profitable purposes (for Microsoft of course)


You've masterfully ignored my question and missed Bam's point to boot.

Would you be happier if you could download the operating systems for free and burn your own disk to load onto multiple computers? Good news for you - you can, albeit illegally.

It can also be done legally by the larger OEM's in the absence of disks/keys. For example, if you buy a Lenovo PC, you won't have a Win CD/key and can reinstall without needing to enter product keys. The keys and the existence of media are not at all the point. Buy one license and you can use it in keeping with the terms of the license whatever that may be.

Microsoft are hardly the inventors of product licensing and you may like to brush up at wiki here.

On a lighter note, there's an interesting crosslinked article that says that:

Quote

As an April Fool's Day joke, Gamestation added a clause stating that "By placing an order via this Web site on the first day of the fourth month of the year 2010 Anno Domini, you agree to grant Us a non transferable option to claim, for now and for ever more, your immortal soul," which 7,500 users agreed to. Although there was a checkbox to exempt out of the "immortal soul" clause, few users checked it and thus GameStation concluded that 88% of their users did not read the agreement.
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#16 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:14 AM

View Posticey, on 24 February 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

You've masterfully ignored my question and missed Bam's point to boot.

Would you be happier if you could download the operating systems for free and burn your own disk to load onto multiple computers? Good news for you - you can, albeit illegally.

It can also be done legally by the larger OEM's in the absence of disks/keys. For example, if you buy a Lenovo PC, you won't have a Win CD/key and can reinstall without needing to enter product keys. The keys and the existence of media are not at all the point. Buy one license and you can use it in keeping with the terms of the license whatever that may be.

Microsoft are hardly the inventors of product licensing and you may like to brush up at wiki here.

On a lighter note, there's an interesting crosslinked article that says that:


I would not risk downloading any Windows program for "free". You will have trouble with it's installation. As I said you not only have to have a "product key number" and you'd have to re-activate it (within 30 days otherwise it will not work) at Microsoft but every time you re-use or reinstall the program (like I do) you'd have to repeat the same procedures and I am having trouble now with a valid disk (let alone with an invalid one) as I said I installed a new hard drive and reinstalled
the program. It is installed properly but I only have 25 days to re-activate it otherwise it's kaput. I keep trying to activate it on the internet but because I am on dial up it keeps rejecting the re-activation
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#17 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 24 February 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I would not risk downloading any Windows program for "free". You will have trouble with it's installation.


I wouldn't, some people would. Some people have troubles even with a legitimate copy.

View Postdumbcluck, on 24 February 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

.....I keep trying to activate it on the internet but because I am on dial up it keeps rejecting the re-activation


You should be able to activate it on dialup, but I already told you what to do if you cannot activate it on the internet. Read the advice, act on it and stop moaning!
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#18 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

View Posticey, on 24 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

I wouldn't, some people would. Some people have troubles even with a legitimate copy.



You should be able to activate it on dialup, but I already told you what to do if you cannot activate it on the internet. Read the advice, act on it and stop moaning!

People who "moan" get results Icey. You know what they say "An noisy hinge on a door gets oiled"
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#19 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:06 PM

Another saying is the one about leading a dog to water.
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#20 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:41 PM

Well I finally did it....over the phone! I activated it! And here I am posting on it.
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