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Evaporate!

#1 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:51 AM

The Roman Catholic Church as both a religious entity and an organization should evaporate from the scene forthwith!
This may seem extreme but how can an organization....and a religious organization at that claim any further credibility in the face of such prolificacy of these crimes of child abuse. We are not talking about a "rare" case of child abuse here.....but an unbelievable number around the globe. True, many are allegations.....which have to be proven in court, but, if there is wholesale cover-ups by that same Catholic Church...and this has been admitted by Cardinal Pell recently.....it does make those allegations closer to the truth.
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#2 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:33 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 29 May 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

The Roman Catholic Church as both a religious entity and an organization should evaporate from the scene forthwith!
This may seem extreme but how can an organization....and a religious organization at that claim any further credibility in the face of such prolificacy of these crimes of child abuse. We are not talking about a "rare" case of child abuse here.....but an unbelievable number around the globe. True, many are allegations.....which have to be proven in court, but, if there is wholesale cover-ups by that same Catholic Church...and this has been admitted by Cardinal Pell recently.....it does make those allegations closer to the truth.

Why single out the Roman Catholics?
How about the Eastern Rite church as well.

Would you stop Catholic aid programs?

Quote

Catholic social teaching emphasises support for the sick, the poor and the afflicted through the corporal works of mercy. The Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of education and medical services in the world.[emphasis added] Catholic spiritual teaching emphasises spread of the Gospel message and growth in spiritual discipline through the spiritual works of mercy.


What proportion of the Catholic Clergy have been involved in paedophillia?

Why do you single out one organization when there are others equally worthy of attention?

Here's a very minor one that is not Catholic oriented, in fact quite far from it.

Quote

Kincora Boys' Home

The Kincora Boys' Home was a children's home in Belfast that was the scene of a notorious child sex abuse scandal.

The scandal first came to public attention in January 1980 after a news report in the Irish Independent. On 3 April 1980 three members of staff at the home, William McGrath, Raymond Semple and Joseph Mains, were charged with a number of offences relating to the systematic sexual abuse of children in their care over a number of years. All three were later convicted and jailed. Mains, the former warden, received a term of six years, Semple, a former assistant warden, five years and McGrath was jailed in December 1981 for four years.[1]
Allegations [edit]

Allegations were later made that the Royal Ulster Constabulary had been informed of the abuse at the home for years previously, but had not moved to prevent it. In his 1999 book The Dirty War, Martin Dillon claims that McGrath, who was also the leader of an obscure loyalist paramilitary group called Tara, may have been employed by MI5 since the 1960s and was being blackmailed into providing intelligence on other loyalist groups.[2] The tabloid press then linked the home with a whole series of establishment figures without any evidence being provided.

Ian Paisley,[as anti-Catholic as they come] leader of the Democratic Unionist Party and moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church which he founded in 1951, was accused of failing to report the fact of McGrath's homosexuality to the relevant authorities although he initially denied ever being advised by his informant, a church member, Valerie Shaw, that McGrath worked in a boys' home. McGrath was himself married with children. Paisley later gave more versions acknowledging learning from Miss Shaw about McGrath's homosexuality.
....
A "private inquiry" was set up in January 1982 by James Prior, the Northern Ireland Secretary of State,[1] under the Commissioner of Complaints, Stephen McGonagle, to deal with these allegations. However it collapsed after three of its members resigned because they felt that the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) had failed to carry out an effective investigation.[1]
Debates on Kincora were held in the Northern Ireland Assembly on 22 March and 9 November 1983. In January 1984, another inquiry, under Judge William Hughes with Mr W.J. Patterson and Mr Harry Whalley, was set up by James Prior.[1][4]
Judge Hughes's Committee of Inquiry into Children's Homes and Hostels submitted its 355 page report on 31 December 1985. Amongst its 56 recommend....
Hughes concluded presciently (p. 342) that, "The events giving rise to this Inquiry...can no longer be regarded as exceptional. They must perhaps be recognised as earlier symptoms of a general malaise permeating the United Kingdom."[5]
Joshua Cardwell, an east Belfast Unionist Party of Northern Ireland (UPNI) councillor and Stormont MP who formerly chaired the Belfast Corporation Welfare Committee responsible for children's’ homes, died by suicide in 1982 after making a statement to the RUC in March over Kincora.[1]
Cardwell told the police of one conversation with the Belfast Town Clerk who had mentioned an imprecise allegation of homosexual conduct, but said that no complaints had ever come his way (p. 70). The Hughes report however concluded (p. 93), "There is no evidence that Councillor Cardwell took steps to prevent an investigation or suppress the matter. Nor is there any evidence that the Ministry of Home Affairs became aware of allegations or rumours of relating to homosexual misconduct at Kincora."[6]


Kincorra.

and that is only one boys' home.
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#3 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:28 AM

I do not like your logic Roderick. So you are saying that cases of child abuse occurred elsewhere which of course justifies them occurring in the Roman Catholic Church so that is alright? Once again I'd have to explain the obvious to everybody (no one gets it anymore...anywhere, they are so bloody dumb...bad diet boys?)..if it applies to the Roman Catholic denomination it applies to any religious and/or other organizations.. that is they should evaporate as well.
Cardinal Pell in fact was most candid before that Victorian Parliamentary Committee where he stated quite plainly that there was systemic cover-ups of child abuse in the Church. Now people tend not to cover up allegations which are in fact "unproven suspicion/gossip"...but the real thing...the "true crime". By admitting this Cardinal Pell went way out there in moving those allegations closer to the truth
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#4 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:38 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 30 May 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I do not like your logic Roderick. So you are saying that cases of child abuse occurred elsewhere which of course justifies them occurring in the Roman Catholic Church so that is alright? Once again I'd have to explain the obvious to everybody (no one gets it anymore...anywhere, they are so bloody dumb...bad diet boys?)..if it applies to the Roman Catholic denomination it applies to any religious and/or other organizations.. that is they should evaporate as well.
Cardinal Pell in fact was most candid before that Victorian Parliamentary Committee where he stated quite plainly that there was systemic cover-ups of child abuse in the Church. Now people tend not to cover up allegations which are in fact "unproven suspicion/gossip"...but the real thing...the "true crime". By admitting this Cardinal Pell went way out there in moving those allegations closer to the truth

You miss the point, you are citing the Roman Catholics; this is a specific group within Catholicism, there are also the various Churchs within the Eastern Rite of Cathokicism.
Roman Catholic in a definitive and limiting term.

The actions of other Christian Churches, other Faiths or of lay organizations in no way justifies the actions of those traitors to Catholicism who have molested children or other vulnerable ones in sexual or other ways, however it does not help your argument to indulge in Catholic bashing.

The Federal Inquiry has it right in that it is not restricted to any one group, even the Boy Scouts are included.
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#5 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

So in your view then Roderick the Roman Catholic Church can still justify it's existence and credibility?
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#6 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:15 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 30 May 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

So in your view then Roderick the Roman Catholic Church can still justify it's existence and credibility?

Of course it can, the actions of a minority who have broken the rules and betrayed their church doesn't mean that the Roman Rite or the broader Catholic Church should cease to exist.

If we applied this to other organizations we would have no police forces in Australia, particularly in NSW and Victoria; wherin, at times, criminal activity has flourished.

The Church has to excise this evil that has occurred within its ranks, just as does the Anglican Church and the various Protestant denominations and all other organizations in which paedophillia ahs or will be detected.
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#7 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostRoderick, on 30 May 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Of course it can, the actions of a minority who have broken the rules and betrayed their church doesn't mean that the Roman Rite or the broader Catholic Church should cease to exist.

If we applied this to other organizations we would have no police forces in Australia, particularly in NSW and Victoria; wherin, at times, criminal activity has flourished.

The Church has to excise this evil that has occurred within its ranks, just as does the Anglican Church and the various Protestant denominations and all other organizations in which paedophillia ahs or will be detected.

The actions of a "minority"? Isn't this an understatement Roderick?
So let me clarify this. You have an organization...a religious one at that, whose members are criminals and it is only effecting the individuals....not the organization itself? Isn't this some sort of moronic logic Roderick?
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#8 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:36 AM

The Catholic Church has 1.2 billion members and some 409,000 priests.LINK

What proportion of those 409,000+ priests are paedophiles?

Quote

So let me clarify this. You have an organization...a religious one at that,[some of] whose members are criminals and it is only effecting the individuals....not the organization itself? Isn't this some sort of moronic logic Roderick?


Of course it must affect the organization, just as criminality by policemen affects the Police Force, but you would not call for the abolition of the Police Force, would you?

Or for the abolition of Federal ParliamenT?
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#9 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 12:45 PM

View PostRoderick, on 30 May 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Of course it can, the actions of a minority who have broken the rules and betrayed their church doesn't mean that the Roman Rite or the broader Catholic Church should cease to exist.

Fair enough too. However, the systemic culture of covering up wrongdoing is quite damning.

The RCC in particular is not going to come out of this unscathed. I suspect that there will be numerous changes that the Church will not like: it will be paying out many millions in compensation, it will be forced to become a properly-incorporated entity so that it can be sued in the future, and there will likely be some reforms within the Church canon so that priests and the like are no longer compelled to be celibate and unable to marry.

I blame the enforced celibacy of priests. Enforced celibacy is unnatural. It is not surprising that the enforced suppression of the natural sexual urges causes many priests to seek undesirable outlets. It is not a sin to take a wife and have sex in wedlock. Why prohibit it for priests? Abolish celibacy, let them take a spouse, and we will likely see less child molestation in the future.
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#10 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:59 PM

Celibacy, enforced or voluntary, has absolutely nothing to do with paedophilia.
The natural sexual urge in a priest is to seek a suitable female partner. There is a long tradition, albeit not much discussed, of 'the priest's wife' which is looked upon with toleration and often affection by the members of the parish concerned, much depending on the esteem in which the priest is/isn't held.
I have lived in four parishes where this was so (approval), one in Ireland, one in India and two in Australia.
If celibacy was the reason for paedophile clergy then it should not occurr in denominations where clergy can marry.

We would need to know how often it happens where Catholic priests are allowed to be married to make a valid comparrison with clergy who are required to be celibate.

Interesting reading Eastern
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#11 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostRoderick, on 31 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

The Catholic Church has 1.2 billion members and some 409,000 priests.LINK

What proportion of those 409,000+ priests are paedophiles?



Of course it must affect the organization, just as criminality by policemen affects the Police Force, but you would not call for the abolition of the Police Force, would you?

Or for the abolition of Federal ParliamenT?


Are you serious? Firstly of course it's a "minority" of cases...whilst others are covered up. Covering up crime makes it in the "minority". And believe me the Roman Catholic Church is a haven for criminal priests. And comparing the Roman Catholic Church with the Police Force and Parliament must take the cake for stupidity. Listen ...it is a religious organization it justifies it's existence only on the fact that it teaches right from wrong. It is wholly a moral institution whilst internally it has criminal "teachers". And you still say it has credibility.

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#12 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:36 PM

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And believe me the Roman Catholic Church is a haven for criminal priests.

But what proportion of its priests are criminal?
Is the proportion greater in the Roman Rite than in the Eastern Rite.

Why do you insist on it being a Roman Rite problem?

A citation or two shewing that the problem is greater in the Roman church than in the Eastern Rite, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox or in Protestant Denominations or in the Anglican Communion would be helpful; otherwise I must assume that you are just being anti Roman Catholic.

The Christian Church justifies its existence by teaching and by good works.
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#13 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:38 AM

View PostRoderick, on 31 May 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Celibacy, enforced or voluntary, has absolutely nothing to do with paedophilia.

You're effectively asserting that no celibate priest in history has ever resorted to pedophilia as an outlet for repressed sexual urges. That's rather a long bow to draw.

Quote

The natural sexual urge in a priest is to seek a suitable female partner. There is a long tradition, albeit not much discussed, of 'the priest's wife' which is looked upon with toleration and often affection by the members of the parish concerned, much depending on the esteem in which the priest is/isn't held.
I have lived in four parishes where this was so (approval), one in Ireland, one in India and two in Australia.
If celibacy was the reason for paedophile clergy then it should not occurr in denominations where clergy can marry.

Nobody said it was "the" reason. It is possible that it is a reason, but there's likely to be numerous reasons for this tendency. The tendency to cover up this behaviour rather than report it to the authorities is more likely to be important.

Quote

We would need to know how often it happens where Catholic priests are allowed to be married to make a valid comparrison with clergy who are required to be celibate.

We will likely find that there's an increased tendency with multiple causes.
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#14 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:31 AM

View PostRoderick, on 31 May 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

But what proportion of its priests are criminal?
Is the proportion greater in the Roman Rite than in the Eastern Rite.

Why do you insist on it being a Roman Rite problem?

A citation or two shewing that the problem is greater in the Roman church than in the Eastern Rite, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox or in Protestant Denominations or in the Anglican Communion would be helpful; otherwise I must assume that you are just being anti Roman Catholic.

The Christian Church justifies its existence by teaching and by good works.

Roderick I am not certain whether you are just simply naive....or unaware or just plain stupid. The proportions between religions of crimes and/or priests which commit them is irrelevant. What is relevant is that even if one priest in the Catholic Religion and one priest in the Anglican Religion..and so on and so forth..both religions are tarnished by this action. This is how it works. I make simpler. Craig Thomson who is an ALP member has to face several charges in court. Now if he is found guilty not only has Craig Thomson been tarnished...but also the organization to which he belongs...the ALP. That is similar....now do you get it?
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#15 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:44 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 01 June 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Roderick I am not certain whether you are just simply naive....or unaware or just plain stupid. The proportions between religions of crimes and/or priests which commit them is irrelevant. What is relevant is that even if one priest in the Catholic Religion and one priest in the Anglican Religion..and so on and so forth..both religions are tarnished by this action. This is how it works. I make simpler. Craig Thomson who is an ALP member has to face several charges in court. Now if he is found guilty not only has Craig Thomson been tarnished...but also the organization to which he belongs...the ALP. That is similar....now do you get it?


The degree of tarnishment is what is important, does the whole surface need to be repolished or is the tarnishing confined to a few spots?

In your book will the Federal Parliament, as a whole be tarnished, after all Craig Thompson is a member?
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#16 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:06 AM

Roderick we are getting to the ridiculous now.You are just being an apologist for the Roman Catholic Church.
You are either stupid which I do not believe or you are a religious fanatic and under these circumstances we'll be going around in circles. You think that the Roman Catholic Church is made up in the majority of saints. I think that it is a haven for criminal priests. And that is where we will have to stop.
I can see why the Church will survive in any case. Luckily for it this world is made up of gullible,foolish, fanatical people
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#17 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:35 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 02 June 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Roderick we are getting to the ridiculous now.You are just being an apologist for the Roman Catholic Church.
You are either stupid which I do not believe or you are a religious fanatic and under these circumstances we'll be going around in circles. You think that the Roman Catholic Church is made up in the majority of saints. I think that it is a haven for criminal priests. And that is where we will have to stop.
I can see why the Church will survive in any case. Luckily for it this world is made up of gullible,foolish, fanatical people


Why do you insist on discussing only the Roman Catholic Church when that is not the whole Catholic Church?

One would think that you would want to discuss the Catholic Church as a whole, but clearly you seem to have an unhealthy fixation on Roman Catholicism.

Quote

Luckily for it this world is made up of gullible,foolish, fanatical people


You are clearly then not of this world?
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#18 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

Because I was of the view that intelligent people would understand the obvious...that is if it applies to the Roman Catholic Church it applies to all other religions as well. But apparently I was wrong.....I was not dealing with intelligent people as I have to keep explaining the obvious
By the way I am not advocating the "abolition" of the Church. This cannot be achieved by any government in the developed world where their Constitutions entrenches freedom of religion. No it has to evaporate by it's own volition
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#19 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 04:18 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 02 June 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Because I was of the view that intelligent people would understand the obvious...that is if it applies to the Roman Catholic Church it applies to all other religions as well. But apparently I was wrong.....I was not dealing with intelligent people as I have to keep explaining the obvious
By the way I am not advocating the "abolition" of the Church. This cannot be achieved by any government in the developed world where their Constitutions entrenches freedom of religion. No it has to evaporate by it's own volition


Quote

The Roman Catholic Church as both a religious entity and an organization should evaporate from the scene forthwith!
This may seem extreme but how can an organization....and a religious organization at that claim any further credibility in the face of such prolificacy of these crimes of child abuse. We are not talking about a "rare" case of child abuse here.....but an unbelievable number around the globe. True, many are allegations.....which have to be proven in court, but, if there is wholesale cover-ups by that same Catholic Church...and this has been admitted by Cardinal Pell recently.....it does make those allegations closer to the truth.


Just how unbelievable is the number, (a reference would be helpful)?

Any intelligent person, reading the above, would get the idea that you were referring to the Roman Catholic Church alone.

Sorry about thay but it looks like you are suffering from plain old bigotry.
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#20 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 02 June 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Roderick we are getting to the ridiculous now.You are just being an apologist for the Roman Catholic Church.
You are either stupid which I do not believe or you are a religious fanatic and under these circumstances we'll be going around in circles.


Your own haughty belief in the fanaticism or stupidity of those holding beliefs or opinions not in keeping with your own is a little, um, special.
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