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Legalising same-sex marriage in Australia?

#1 User is offline   Dorex 

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 02:49 PM

I was just reading about how gay mariages have been legalised for New York - the largest state in the US. This means that the population, combined, living in a state where gay marriages are legal had doubled overnight.

See: http://www.nydailyne...oric_bill_.html

See: http://edition.cnn.c...iage/index.html

By the way, not all gay-marriage supporters are socialists. Some conservative Democrats and the more libertarian Republicans also voted for this bill.

I don't see this happening in Australia because of the state at how both major political parties run and it is neither of their policies to allow gay marriages to happen. In parliaments, if the Greens propose this sort of bill, they would be painted as watermelons by both parties. The closest Australia can get to legalising gay marriage is if ACT legalises it first- it's the most progressive jurisdiction in Australia. Mind you, Australia is more agnostic/atheist than USA is.
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#2 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 08:28 PM

I cannot understand how people in any country in this day and age are concerned with the compulsive teaching of morality and/or Christianity and/or religion on a mass scale. This subject of same sex marriage is relevant to this and this is why the political parties are reluctant to do anything about it. The above are simply choices of an individual and to even attempt to 'shove your opinion' on these issues down anyone's throat is simply....stupid!
Morality is subjective.What may be moral to me may not be to you.It is noted without difficulty that if you get a million people's opinion on morality....you will get a million different opinions on it. Whether one should be a Christian/religious is the choice of an individual...in the ABSENCE of any attempt at pressure.
In this case ..same sex marriage to me is not immoral. However another may see it the opposite..and so it goes.
Even theologians disagree on the interpretation of Bible quotes. I have heard different pastors give different interpretations on the same Bible quote which just shows you that even the Bible is quite subjective. It is quite pointless to debate a subjective issue or issues as it will not contain the element of logic and/or reasoning . In the absence of these elements no conciliatory outcome is possible
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#3 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 02:15 AM

View Postdumbcluck, on 25 June 2011 - 08:28 PM, said:

It is quite pointless to debate a subjective issue or issues as it will not contain the element of logic and/or reasoning . In the absence of these elements no conciliatory outcome is possible


What's the opposite to moral absolutism?
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#4 User is offline   Marat 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:12 AM

View Posticey, on 26 June 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

What's the opposite to moral absolutism?
Immoral relativism?
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#5 User is offline   AlexSchlotzer 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:43 AM

I have massive problems when ever we start mixing in religion into debates like this one. IT offends me to no end that religion is taught in school when it has no place in school. IT offends me to no end that religion gets free kicks on questions of morality when most religions have proven that they don't have the solutions and their followers are as amoral as they come.

It beggars belief that we live in ignorance fueled by the ridiculous preachings of people deluded into thinking there are superior supernatural beings.
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----
Alex Schlotzer
Visit my Blog about politics, online activism and social media.
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#6 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:46 AM

I think that morality is a "spiritual" concept. It cannot be defined as something physical. Therefore it is an airy-fairy concept in this physical world. Similarly with Christianity/Religions. This is why these issues...and this is admitted by the leaders of these same entities rely on 'faith' in believing them. 'Faith' is described by the Collins dictionary as being quote "strong belief...without proof" end quote Now if we rely on 'faith' as similar to these practices on say....criminality...I can say for example that you Marat and Icey are criminals. I can further say that I have 'faith' in believing this.On this statement law enforcement can then come along and incarcerate both of you for a number of years!. In short you are gaoled
on.......'faith'!
Alex you are making the mistake of mixing religion with the existence or non-existence of a spiritual being we know as God. You have to separate the two. The former has nothing to do with the latter.
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#7 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 10:39 AM

View PostAlexSchlotzer, on 26 June 2011 - 09:43 AM, said:

I have massive problems when ever we start mixing in religion into debates like this one. IT offends me to no end that religion is taught in school when it has no place in school. IT offends me to no end that religion gets free kicks on questions of morality when most religions have proven that they don't have the solutions and their followers are as amoral as they come.

It beggars belief that we live in ignorance fueled by the ridiculous preachings of people deluded into thinking there are superior supernatural beings.


Good for you with your humanistic beliefs AlexSchlotzer. The difference is that I accept your right to an atheistic belief system, yet you deny me my right to believe in a supernatural God. Toughen up princess.

View Postdumbcluck, on 26 June 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

Alex you are making the mistake of mixing religion with the existence or non-existence of a spiritual being we know as God. You have to separate the two. The former has nothing to do with the latter.


The former has nothing to do with the latter? Religion has nothing to do with the existence of God? Of course it does depend on which definition you were intending.

If you were using the one that goes "a cause, or system of beliefs held to with ardour or faith", then you'd have to be talking about the global warming cult.
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#8 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:57 PM

This is the crux of the problem isn't it? All our lives we were taught to believe that the existence or non-existence of a being we call God is tied to the religion/s. This is not necessarily so. I am of the view that a supernatural being does exist but "/she" is not as"s/he' as is depicted... a religious figure. This is how the religions depict this "being".This "being" may be what we perceive it here on earth to be an "alien" shape??? It could be a "mist". In short it could be anything in any form. But of course this is hard to believe as....gees what? God is not a reverential figure? How could that be?
Further life and death and the theories of the afterlife once again are wholly irrelevant to the religious teachings.All those teachings succeed in doing is to perhaps embellish these theories (as similar to the existence of god) to fit their religious perceptions and all they are is just simply a natural way for the outcome of a human life
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#9 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:43 AM

View Posticey, on 26 June 2011 - 10:39 AM, said:

Good for you with your humanistic beliefs AlexSchlotzer. The difference is that I accept your right to an atheistic belief system, yet you deny me my right to believe in a supernatural God. Toughen up princess.


Ice queen, I don't think he was doing anything of the sort...
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#10 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 01:08 PM

Quote

I have massive problems when ever we start mixing in religion into debates like this one.  IT offends me to no end that religion is taught in school when it has no place in school.


Just wondering if this one is permissible in your insular world?

"Students swap Play-Doh for Plato" ............... LINK: bit.ly/mN097e
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#11 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 09:30 AM

You see this is where I cannot find a place for myself in this debate. An atheist does not believe in any religion and/or the existence of God.If this is the definition then I am not an atheist. On the other hand a Christian believes in religion and the existence of God. I do not fit in this category either as I believe in the existence of God but...I do not believe in any religion.Unlike the majority I separate the two. I know that billions have been "brainwashed" into connecting both...but apparently I was the only one left out.There is another category I believe...that of a humanist. However I do not believe that I belong to this category either as a humanist..as I understand it is also an atheist.From the 'title' a humanist ONLY believes in everything 'human' and of course the unseen "God" would be defined in that category
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#12 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 10:39 AM

People who use religious arguments to foist their views on non-believers (including those of other faiths) need to take a chill pill and relax. If their particular denomination does not allow gay marriage, then that will continue to be the case. For example, a Catholic marriage must be between a man and a woman, so a gay marriage cannot be within the Catholic church even if it was legal. I do not see the problem here.

It is interesting how these fundies love beating the homosexual drum, yet do not seem to have read their scripture from cover to cover - otherwise they would also be up in arms about sex outside of marriage, kids being disrespectful to their parents, excessive alcohol consumption, tobacco usage, the use of addictive illicit drugs, masturbation, anal sex, tax evasion and so on - all of which are prohibited or discouraged by scripture. Which makes one wonder why they are silent on these things.
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#13 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:10 PM

Yes I agree.The major problem with many religious faiths however is the fact that they like to somehow dictate or even alter natural human behavior.The human is a self contained vessel as constructed by nature. It is aware of the choice between right and wrong.It has a natural instinct and "equipment" to procreate. It requires no instruction whatsoever in the of art survival .True it is not perfect.....where in fact it is quite imperfect with dire consequences upon him/herself and his/her ilk.But this imperfection cannot be altered by anyone including any religious faith.This is the way of nature
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#14 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 11:36 PM

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..otherwise they would also be up in arms about sex outside of marriage, kids being disrespectful to their parents, excessive alcohol consumption, tobacco usage, the use of addictive illicit drugs, masturbation, anal sex, tax evasion and so on - all of which are prohibited or discouraged by scripture. Which makes one wonder why they are silent on these things.


Funny thing though Bam, for all your lauded activities ("sex outside of marriage, kids being disrespectful to their parents, excessive alcohol consumption, tobacco usage, the use of addictive illicit drugs, masturbation, anal sex, tax evasion and so on)", the one thing that has not occurred in history, give or take a few years, is men marrying men, and women marrying women.

So whilst you offer up a cornucopia of undesirable yet regularly occurring activities, same sex marriage just ain't in the mix. It's out there yet flagrantly not in step with societal norms. Nor our country's law. Nor our (dare I be heretical?), our Judeo Christian principles.

Quote

The major problem with many religious faiths however is the fact that they like to somehow dictate or even alter natural human behavior.The human is a self contained vessel as constructed by nature. It is aware of the choice between right and wrong.It has a natural instinct and "equipment" to procreate. It requires no instruction whatsoever in the of art survival .True it is not perfect.....where in fact it is quite imperfect with dire consequences upon him/herself and his/her ilk.But this imperfection cannot be altered by anyone including any religious faith.This is the way of nature


You animal dumbchuck! A slave to nature and evolution yet nevertheless, I detect a moral compass.
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#15 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:07 AM

They are the facts..and nothing but the facts! I, not unlike another 6 billion people on the planet have a pattern human behaviour.I may be a rapist, a kind man, a pervert, a dirty old man,a compassionate man, a one woman man, a polygamist or a monogamist.I could be a murderer, a thief, or a slick womaniser. Or I could be placed any of the other million and one categories of this quality which exist on the planet. This behaviour has nothing to do with "evil".It has nothing to do with the devil. It has nothing to do with any religious faith. It has ALL to do with with I call "mental incitement". Simply put whatever your mind dictates....you do....no more no less!In short..it is an extremely mind form of mental illness. However society cannot put everyone who acts like this in an asylum otherwise we will have more asylums than people. So what did it do? Well it "drew a line in the sand". If a person is somehow dangerous to him/herself or to others then society steps in to protect that person and society by either treating him/her for mental illness and/or incarcerate him/her for a period of time
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#16 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 01:39 PM

View Postdumbcluck, on 07 July 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

I may be a rapist, .... a murderer ...... This behaviour has nothing to do with "evil".


Must be an alternate definition of "evil" from south of the border.

Certainly not a statement congruent with my own idea of evil. Or rape & murder.
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#17 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 07:46 PM

This thinking is because, as stated previously,we were consistently brainwashed during our upbringing with that religious concept of "evil" and "sin".All I am trying to point out is that this is hogwash....there is no evil...no sin...no hell.It's simply a matter of human behaviour depending on the individual's thinking pattern and no religion has the capability of influence to alter this behaviour and shall never will. We have a perfect example of this. Religions have been in existence for thousands of years...and the human being remains to this day committing what we perceive as wrongdoing from murder to rape to many other acts.The religions failed to stop this.
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#18 User is offline   dumbcluck 

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 07:47 PM

This thinking is because, as stated previously,we were consistently brainwashed during our upbringing with that religious concept of "evil" and "sin".All I am trying to point out is that this is hogwash....there is no evil...no sin...no hell.It's simply a matter of human behaviour depending on the individual's thinking pattern and no religion has the capability of influence to alter this behaviour and shall never will. We have a perfect example of this. Religions have been in existence for thousands of years...and the human being remains to this day committing what we perceive as wrongdoing from murder to rape to many other acts.The religions failed to stop this.
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#19 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 08:39 PM

View Posticey, on 06 July 2011 - 11:36 PM, said:

Funny thing though Bam, for all your lauded activities ("sex outside of marriage, kids being disrespectful to their parents, excessive alcohol consumption, tobacco usage, the use of addictive illicit drugs, masturbation, anal sex, tax evasion and so on)", the one thing that has not occurred in history, give or take a few years, is men marrying men, and women marrying women.

So whilst you offer up a cornucopia of undesirable yet regularly occurring activities, same sex marriage just ain't in the mix. It's out there yet flagrantly not in step with societal norms. Nor our country's law. Nor our (dare I be heretical?), our Judeo Christian principles.

Firstly, I take exception to your use of the word "lauded" here. I am not promoting these behaviours nor discouraging them. It is just a list. By using the word "lauded" you are implying that I am supporting these activities when I made no such implication either way. Please be careful not to do this because it is in contravention of forum rules.

In regard to your post, check your facts. How many jurisdictons have legalised same-sex marriage? History is not just stuff that happened in ancient times.

Assuming that your argument is that it did not occur in Biblical times, what's your point? Is it specifically prohibited by scripture? The things I listed are (or are at least discouraged), but assuming same-sex marriage did not occur, is it possible that it's not actually spcifically prohibited by scripture? Why ban something in scripture if it did not exist?
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#20 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 02:59 AM

I do not know how many countries have legalised same sex marriage Bam, nor whether this happened this century, or the one before last. My guess is extremely few, and only very recently. Please fill me in.

Quote

Firstly, I take exception to your use of the word "lauded" here. I am not promoting these behaviours nor discouraging them. It is just a list. By using the word "lauded" you are implying that I am supporting these activities when I made no such implication either way. Please be careful not to do this because it is in contravention of forum rules


Prior post corrected thus:

Funny thing though Bam, for all your lauded tacit approval of such activities ("sex outside of marriage, kids being disrespectful to their parents, excessive alcohol consumption, tobacco usage, the use of addictive illicit drugs, masturbation, anal sex, tax evasion and so on)", the one thing that has not occurred in history, give or take a few years, is men marrying men, and women marrying women.

Quote

Why bam something in scripture if it did not exist?


Quite so. And rationalisation of the use of methamphetamine is possible if one's game.
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