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NBN Discussion Thread The National Broadband Network

#41 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:38 PM

View Posteddietla, on 04 February 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:



My creed

In response, and with respect to the source, I offer my creed.

You may of course have had a specific point somewhere within your 72 page submission.
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#42 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 08:09 AM

From Tweeter :

http://www.zdnet.com...t-339308997.htm
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#43 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 08:42 AM

http://www.zdnet.com...39308703.htm#vp
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#44 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:39 AM

http://www.zdnet.com...y-339309110.htm
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#45 User is offline   ice444 

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 06:46 PM

I can see the argument from both sides of the fence. I was an alp supporter but feel they are too much like the Liberal party now so don't really care who is in government.

My take on the nbn is as follows (i have used the internet for 15+ years, have optus cable @ 100mbps (so about 5 times the maximum limit of adsl 2) have an iphone with 3g (so wireless) have used dial up, adsl, adsl 2, cable and wireless and frequent whirlpool (a broadband forum) as much as possible.

While i support the nbn I don't believe the alp have done a good job of selling it to people.

The competing technologies:

Are there any competing technologies to fiber?

That can offer 32 users 100 mbps (megabits per second) at once?) (i chose 32 because that is the number of users per node the nbn will have).

The answer to this is no.

Copper cannot do it (there are technologies out there that may be able to offer users 100mbps, however you have to have 2 or more pairs of copper and have to have a full line, be within 1km of the dslam (isp connection point which means 75% of households are out) is not available for those on pair gains, with 1 line or with degraded copper).

Wireless definitely can't (the figures touted are for 1 cell running total 100 mbps - chuck 32 users on one tower and it will run @ 3mbps each. Plasma antenaes can do 7gbps, however this is really new technology and is unproven (just like wi-max and 4g).

Plus you have the nimbys (not in my back yard) who wouldn't want a wireless tower on every corner. As wireless is a shared medium (as is the nbn) the more users you have means the less bandwith you have per user.

Look @ Vodafone and Optus networks and tell me it works *hint it doesn't*. Also, in 2015 they are thinking the amount of wireless bandwith will not be enough to handle the load. 4g isn't that much faster than 3g (unlike the jump from 2g to 3g, the amount of compression/improvements over 4g isn't all that good - their talking 10-12 mbps - currently i can get 5!).

Yes wireless connections are increasing, but the amount downloaded on wireless is decreasing. The amount downloaded on fixed line is currently increasing. People are starting to realise fixed wireless (wireless running of a fixed connection - like at home) is a much better solution than 3g.

So Fiber for mine is the best bet for the next 10-20 years.

It has been tested at 70 terrabits a second (that's 70,000 gigabits a second) on 1 piece of fiber @ 700km long.

To upgrade it, all you need to do is upgrade the electronics at either end. The fiber can do 1gbps (at least) to each home.

The nbn have budgeted for 2 terrabytes of usage per household per month. This is a phenomenal amount of usage.

The cost:

I agree 27 (it's not 43 and it's not 36 - it's 27 - repeat after me 27! billion is a lot of money. However how does this compare with other forms of expenditure? Are we spending this all at once?

The 27 billion is not being spent in 1 year. It's being spent over 10 years. It's equity (so it's not coming from the budget) and the nbn will add (according to reports) between 1-2% of gdp each year. (in the long run this thing will pay for itself 10 fold.

Yes we are paying Telstra 11 billion, however this should be negated by revenue from customers.

How do we know a technology won't come along to superseed it?

Physics! Wireless is limited by spectrum. You wouldn't have enough spectrum to match fiber. A fixed connection (until we can bend physics) will always come up trumps over a wireless connection.

Won't I be paying more?

If you have a home phone currently do you pay $20-$30 a month? Add your internet cost to this (i currently pay $99 a month for internet and home phone) and the nbn (charged @ $50 a month) doesn't look so bad.

But it's cutting competition?

In a way it is cutting competition (in the wholesale arena). Telstra are the incumbent, they own the network (apart from Optus' hfc network - lets not forget the cable wars of the 1990'S) at the moment they also are an isp. They favour their own isp (hell who wouldn't) to the detrement of other isp's/consumers.

This will stop this happening. Yes the nbn will be the only wholesaler, but they will be an open wholesaler.

No longer will Telstra (or Optus for that matter) have an advantage of having their own networks.

Why can't the government let the private sector build this?

If the private sector wanted to build this they would have already done it. The access fees would be horrendous and we would be back to square one.

Will i be forced to use it?

This is hard to say. You don't have to use it, however the copper will be pulled out at some stage (think 15-20 years) so it's a safe bet at some stage you will have to use it. However fiber is more reliable than copper, needs less maintenance and doesn't cost us much in up keep).

Is their going to be problems with the nbn?

Of course there is. It's not perfect, there is a learning curve and through some misinformation (cough) the Australian (cough) people don't know what to believe.

Here are some mistruths:

People will have to pay $4000 to rewire their home!

This is false. If you want to use a router and plug it directly into your computer all your up for is the cost of the modem. If you want wireless then you buy a wireless router. If however you wanted to run cat 5-6-10 cabling to every room in your house then yes it may cost you money, however for the majority of people this is not a problem.

Wireless is a better technology:

I believe this is false. Put 32 users on 1 wireless tower and tell me it's a better technology. I love my iphone but nothing beats my fixed line connection.

The take up rate has been low:

Yes in Tasmania it has been. Look on the main land and something like 90% in some areas have signed up. It's taking a while (4 years in and more people should be on it) however they have to get the systems right first. The backhaul (the backbone to the system) is nearly finished and the 20 or so mainland sites will be up and running in the second half of the year.

It will cost $200 a month:

This depends on what services you get. Get a triple play and it may cost that much, get a home phone only and it might even be free (monthly line rental may be a thing of the past) and for internet and home phone it will be pretty comparable. The difference (well for those on adsl is you will get a guaranteed connection speed).

I'm not saying this is perfect. The alp haven't handled it well. There has been a lot of mistruths and it is taking an extraordinary amount of time to get this up and running. However with the Telstra agreement comming through (the accc/shareholders have to approve it) i am sure there will be clauses in there (rightly or wrongly) to say if it's cancelled then the government will be up for big biccies.

If the Howard government had of split Telstra in the first place (which is what the Liberals want to do - apparently) and only sold the isp side of Telstra none of this would have been a problem. The network would not have been left to rot, there would not have been 10 years without investment in the industry and we may already have fiber.

As it is, the alp have had to fix this up. Only time will tell if they succeeed, it's anyone guess what will happen next. Of the 2 the alp's broadband plan is miles in front of the Liberals. Yes it's costing more but in the long run the return will be far greater.

We have already got 1-2 billion in work out of this, as well as 20,000 new jobs (at the height of the installations).

You may not agree with it (or anything i have said) however the copper network will not be around forever (in fact it's on it's last legs - Telstra reliase this and will be free from having to fix it - this is 1 billion a year they can put to good use elsewhere).

There was a report released today saying that it would cost 24 x more than south koreas for less speed. What this isn't telling you is that Korea already have a network up and running and are upgrading to 1gbps for 24 billion american dollars. Considering it's only costing us 27 to build a whole network I can tell you whose getting the better deal.

Not everyone is going to get fiber when it is first rolled out. If they pay the difference however the nbn is happy to install it.

This network is too important to scrap. A cba(cost benefity analysis) will not show us anything new. It will cost 50 million and can be made to say whatever you want it to. Some people may not think the internet is important. Some people think it's only for games. However if we build this network it's going to have countless uses.

E-health
Smart power meters
Video Conferencing
Remote Access
etc.
Business with 10gbps connections - at the moment this is the stuff of dreams - business' will save money on the nbn

Is there a downside?

Is Australia spending too much?

Is fiber the right technolog?

Is replacing 1 monopoly with another (albeit a different type) a good thing?

I for one think it's worth it. The status quo isn't working. The copper network is dieing and would need replacing in 5-10 years anyway.

If we upgraded the copper network to give everyon 12mbps it wouldn't solve our problems. People's lines would still be degrading (each year copper lines degrade - 1 year you might get 12 mbps, the next it might only be 5).

I am in support of the nbn. The government needs to get it's act together to get people educated about it and connected to it.

If it's still in the same state in 2 years time then it might be a question of too little too late.

As it is, i'm not 100% happy with how it's going but can see the upside. With Telstra and soon to be Optus on board it's anyones guess as to what the nbn will be like in 12 months.
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Let me get this straight...Charlie Sheen can make a "porn family", Kelsey Grammer can end a 15 year marriage over the phone, Larry King can be on divorce #9, Britney Spears had a 55 hour marriage, Jesse James and Tiger Woods, while married, were having sex with EVERYONE. Yet, the idea of same-sex marriage is going to destroy the institution of marriage? Really
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#46 User is offline   Neil 

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 10:11 AM

http://www.theregist..._stirs_nbn_pot/

Quote

For predictable, spiritless repetition, Australia’s broadband network debate beats Groundhog Day hands down.

It’s like being condemned to spend eternity on tour with a geriatric opera: the same actors for each performance croak out the same parts with the same orchestra in the pit, the chorus limply recites its lines, and everybody gets ready to do it again tomorrow.

Today, Telstra made a network announcement, the government released a document, the Opposition made a statement attacking the National Broadband Network (NBN), and Australia’s political and technical journalists wrote it up in line with whatever slant they’ve already adopted.

It goes on to explain the details of Telstra's announcement. Hint Telstra's 4G mobile network is in competition with Optus and Vodaphone not the NBN. Also many households in the future may have a mixture of mobile and fixed requirments.
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#47 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:23 PM

From Tweeter : http://www.abc.net.a.../15/3139146.htm
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#48 User is offline   MassiveSpray 

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:16 AM

View PostJJ, on 23 January 2011 - 01:15 AM, said:

I am a tech expert and I can tell you that wireless is not a solution. There is simply not enough spectrum to allow for the number of simultaneous users that this sort of arrangement would entail. The whole problem with the "hey why don't we just use wireless" solution is that it would seriously require putting a mobile tower at the end of every street. It's actually cheaper to run fibre to the home.

The thing that people fail to recognise about fibre is that, once it's done, it will last for 50-100 years (probably more). The amount of bandwidth they can push down a fibre pipe increases every year. They only need to change the transponders at either end. This is why NBNCo was able to announce that 1Gbps would be available by the time of roll-out.

I really need to get some sleep, but I want to get this point across. This infrastructure has the potential to significantly revolutionise our economy. I used to work as an IT consultant for small to medium businesses and I can tell you that so many of them suffered productivity-wise due to lacklustre ADSL connections. Not because the connections were flakey - but because of the limitations of the technology. It is quite difficult to have any sort of work-from-home arrangement when your upstream bandwidth is limited to 1.5mbps. The NBN would basically allow you to access your work machines at speeds indecipherable from your local home network for most applications (I'm talking documents, spreadsheets, images and even light video work). It will also allow regional areas to become e-commerce hubs. It has the ptoential to level the playing field in this increasingly online world.

Furthermore, there is the media component. Right now, our media is primarily the domain of the free-to-air networks and Foxtel. The NBN has the potential to level this playing field too. It will herald the beginning of ubiquitous IPTV. With the vast majority of the Australian population on the NBN, there will finally be a market for new players in the media market. You'll just plug your TV into your router and be able to access multiple providers at the touch of a button...


I'm with you JJ.

The nuffies who confidently state that 4G will solve all their problems are seriously deluded.
But then since when did the laws of physics ever stop the Just-Say-No opposition from opening their gobs.
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#49 User is offline   ice444 

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 07:50 PM

Lol 4g being the answer! (right!)

Considering fiber can do 100 pettabytes/second (about 400 dvd's) across a 7000km section of fiber, wireless is going to take over.

1 question for people who support wireless (Well 2 really):

1 - Do you want a wireless tower on every street corner (what about the nimby's?)
2 - What happens when spectrum runs out/there are more than 20 users?
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Let me get this straight...Charlie Sheen can make a "porn family", Kelsey Grammer can end a 15 year marriage over the phone, Larry King can be on divorce #9, Britney Spears had a 55 hour marriage, Jesse James and Tiger Woods, while married, were having sex with EVERYONE. Yet, the idea of same-sex marriage is going to destroy the institution of marriage? Really
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#50 User is offline   Neil 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:59 AM

ice444 stop bringing the laws of physics into this discussion it has no place in a political debate. If it did no one would mention wireless.
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#51 User is offline   Neil 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:46 AM

NBN kills 4G on cost for data hungry http://www.zdnet.com...lpool.net.au%2F

Quote

in the period between April and June 2010, Australians downloaded a whopping 151.8 petabytes (PB) of data, an increase of 21.5 per cent on the previous six months. Conversely, mobile broadband downloads suffered a decline, dropping 6 per cent from 13.9PB to 13PB.

So as fixed line costs for downloads decrease usage increases and at the expenses of wireless.
Basically Australians are using mobile broadband for convenient access and fixed broadband for the expensive heavy lifting.
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#52 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:26 PM

Rod Tucker (Director Uni Melb. Institute for a Broadband Society) wrote this in 'The Drum'
http://www.abc.net.a...shed/44212.html
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#53 User is offline   ice444 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:33 PM

I know i should stop bringing my knowledge in here but i have to ask:

Why can't we have both?

Fixed line for home and wireless for out and about.

You can't have a wireless network without fiber anyway.
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Let me get this straight...Charlie Sheen can make a "porn family", Kelsey Grammer can end a 15 year marriage over the phone, Larry King can be on divorce #9, Britney Spears had a 55 hour marriage, Jesse James and Tiger Woods, while married, were having sex with EVERYONE. Yet, the idea of same-sex marriage is going to destroy the institution of marriage? Really
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#54 User is offline   Neil 

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 07:47 AM

Google chairman and former CEO Eric Schmidt has thrown his support behind the Federal Government's $37.5 billion National Broadband Network project, describing it as "wonderful" in a question and answer session at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain.
http://www.zdnet.com...n-339309888.htm

Also
"Let me start by saying Australia is leading the world in understanding the importance of fibre,"

So we have experts like Vint Cerf and some serious corporate types praising the NBN and still people here bag it.
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#55 User is offline   Neil 

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 07:55 AM

What do the experts say

http://nbnmyths.word...he-experts-say/

This will not help icey understand as he doesn't trust experts

To end the myths try http://nbnmyths.wordpress.com/
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#56 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 10:04 PM

From ABC (Just in)

http://www.abc.net.a...?section=justin
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#57 User is offline   Neil 

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:34 AM

Armidale is being closely watched by all sides as it is likely to provide the first test of demand for the project outside of Tasmania.

So far, Armidale seems to like it. Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said almost 90 per cent of the 5739 premises eligible to receive the NBN under a trial rollout had opted to connect.
http://theland.farmo...bn/2080417.aspx

So in spite of the scare campaign run against it the NBN seems popular (90 % adoption) I wonder how many National Party politicians are now getting nervous communications are a problem in the bush.
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#58 User is offline   Senexx 

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:19 AM

None, they'll point to the fact the NBN is basically based or similar to a paper put out by the Page Research Centre.
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Support the Independents, Democracy always needs and requires a balance of power.

Counter Insurgent,

Deficit Terrorist Unit

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#59 Guest-eddietla

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:29 PM

From someone in Tweeter.

http://www.theregist...sor_slaps_news/
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#60 User is offline   HDMC 

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 05:55 AM

The company charged with installing a controversial broadband network through Brisbane's sewer system has been dumped.

Lord Mayor Campbell Newman today said Brisbane City Council would no longer be dealing with i3 Asia Pacific, as he was unhappy with the progress of the scheme.

Work on the sewer broadband project, designed to provide speeds of 100 megabits per second within four years, was set to start early this year.

In October last year, i3 Asia Pacific announced it would spend $600 million to set up a broadband internet service despite troubles with similar projects in England.

The company said it hoped to provide the broadband link years ahead of the Federal Government's National Broadband Network project.

Brisbane City Council reached an agreement with the council-owned Queensland Urban Utilities in November to provide access to Brisbane's sewer network.

http://www.brisbanet...0222-1b3wv.html
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