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Israel and Hamas

#1 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:07 PM

1) What do you know of the Israel/Palestinian conflict?
2) Do you understand what the BDS campaign is trying to achieve?
3) Do you understand how its not racism?
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#2 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

1) What do you know of the Israel/Palestinian conflict?
2) Do you understand what the BDS campaign is trying to achieve?
3) Do you understand how its not racism?


It is a one-sided policy that seeks to punish Israel while exonerating countries that support Hamas and Hezbollah. It is a policy that wants to punish the sole democracy in the region while being silent about abuses in the surrounding countries. How is that NOT racism? a proper balanced policy (eg not a racist one) would not completely ignore the terrorist acts of the other side eg bombing schoolbuses.

BDS is a nice cool new name whose goal is exactly the same as less subtle overtly racist ones. Fortunately, the voters saw it as such and dumped on the Greens bigtime.
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#3 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

It is a one-sided policy that seeks to punish Israel
Good. Now ask yourself why Israel deserves this campaign.

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while exonerating countries that support Hamas and Hezbollah.
The BDS campaign is targeted only at Israeli companies. Hamas is the democratically elected representative of the people of the Gaza strip. Hezbollah defended their country against an aggressor, and was successful. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

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It is a policy that wants to punish the sole democracy in the region
No. Its a policy that wants to punish the apartheid regime that has occupied the territory for the last 45 years. The fact they play dress ups as a democracy is completely besides the point.

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while being silent about abuses in the surrounding countries.
Once again, just because it doesn't explicitly state every thing that is going wrong in that neck of the woods doesn't mean its racist.

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How is that NOT racism?
Because its got nothing to do with race.

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a proper balanced policy (eg not a racist one) would not completely ignore the terrorist acts of the other side eg bombing schoolbuses.
So we are taking both sides records into account now? Because I can tell you right now that Israel doesn't come out smelling like roses.

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BDS is a nice cool new name whose goal is exactly the same as less subtle overtly racist ones. Fortunately, the voters saw it as such and dumped on the Greens bigtime.
No, I just dont think the public is correctly informed on the issue. Much like yourself.
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#4 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:22 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Good. Now ask yourself why Israel deserves this campaign.
The BDS campaign is targeted only at Israeli companies. Hamas is the democratically elected representative of the people of the Gaza strip. Hezbollah defended their country against an aggressor, and was successful. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

No. Its a policy that wants to punish the apartheid regime that has occupied the territory for the last 45 years. The fact they play dress ups as a democracy is completely besides the point.

Once again, just because it doesn't explicitly state every thing that is going wrong in that neck of the woods doesn't mean its racist.
Because its got nothing to do with race.

So we are taking both sides records into account now? Because I can tell you right now that Israel doesn't come out smelling like roses.
No, I just dont think the public is correctly informed on the issue. Much like yourself.


well like it or not, the Australian people agree with me by a massive majority. 'democratically elected govts' that bomb childrens buses and launch missle attacks from civilian areas dont deserve the sort of protection that idiotic one-sided policies like the BDS try and deliver.

The problem for you is that most aussies believe in the fair go. Targetting and bombing civilians and children as a priority target is about as NOT 'fair go' as it gets. And the BDS nearly destroyed the Greens in NSW. It is an act of political suicide.

your naivete is quite noticable. The mere support of the BDS is racist. How can it not be when it actively promotes one race over another. You dont get to redefine the menaing of the term 'racist' just because you dont like Israel. You either support bilateral action or you are a racist. There is NO alternative.
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#5 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:39 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

well like it or not, the Australian people agree with me by a massive majority. 'democratically elected govts' that bomb childrens buses and launch missle attacks from civilian areas dont deserve the sort of protection that idiotic one-sided policies like the BDS try and deliver.

I said before that most people dont know much about the situation there. If you sat down and explained the facts to people, I think you would see a very different set of polling results.

So what about the group that uses human shields? and the one that bombed civilian areas with white phosphorous? and the group that knowingly shelled civilian areas with artillery? and the group that has consistently and repeatedly defied international law? and the group that is engaged in a colonialist oppression of an entire nation? and the group that repeatedly negotiates in bad faith, and then blames the break down of negotiations on the other party?

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The problem for you is that most aussies believe in the fair go. Targetting and bombing civilians and children as a priority target is about as NOT 'fair go' as it gets.
Finally something we can agree on.

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And the BDS nearly destroyed the Greens in NSW. It is an act of political suicide.
Once again, its because people don't understand the situation. Educate everyone and it wouldn't be political suicide.

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your naivete is quite noticable. The mere support of the BDS is racist. How can it not be when it actively promotes one race over another.
No. It targets companies that benefit from the systematic oppression of a nation. Its not seeking to promote one race over another. Its seeking to redress the imbalance implicit in the situation through economic means.

Look, I understand we dont see eye to eye. Thats patently obvious to anyone with a functioning brain. Please, just go and read some more about the whole conflict, and not from the main stream media, or haaretz. Realise what is actually happening over there, and then come back to me.
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#6 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I said before that most people dont know much about the situation there. If you sat down and explained the facts to people, I think you would see a very different set of polling results.

So what about the group that uses human shields? and the one that bombed civilian areas with white phosphorous? and the group that knowingly shelled civilian areas with artillery? and the group that has consistently and repeatedly defied international law? and the group that is engaged in a colonialist oppression of an entire nation? and the group that repeatedly negotiates in bad faith, and then blames the break down of negotiations on the other party?

Finally something we can agree on.

Once again, its because people don't understand the situation. Educate everyone and it wouldn't be political suicide.

No. It targets companies that benefit from the systematic oppression of a nation. Its not seeking to promote one race over another. Its seeking to redress the imbalance implicit in the situation through economic means.

Look, I understand we dont see eye to eye. Thats patently obvious to anyone with a functioning brain. Please, just go and read some more about the whole conflict, and not from the main stream media, or haaretz. Realise what is actually happening over there, and then come back to me.


yes because hamas never uses human shields right? and of course Hamas never starts a conflict, right? and of course Hamas doesnt target civilians exclusively right?

Who exactly do you think your are conning? Hamas fires missiles at Israeli civilian areas literaly from inside an apartmenet building filled with their own people and then you have the audacity to complain that they return fire? Israel isnt suicide bombing school buses. Hamas are. Israel even offered a two-state solution and were rejected. When the gaza invasion took place, the IDF phoned people in the area and told them to leave as well as letter-dropped the entire area to make it safe for locals. Do Hamas tell parents not to send their kids on a bus to schol because they plan to bomb it?

Do you deny any of this? Who puts 13yo boys and retarded women in suicide belts and sends them to Israeli positions - including shopping centres? Hamas. Who supplies Gaza with water and sewers? Israel. I dont always defend their actions but any program (liek the BDS) that simply ignores atrocities liek Hamas commits is simply bias and racism. it is impossible to be anything else.

so tell me, why does the BDS ban anything from Syria or dont the 5000 people killed there mean anything? Why dont you ban anything from Gaza? no... just Israel.

The story is a long one. You are just the more recent teller.

anti-semitism
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#7 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:30 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

yes because hamas never uses human shields right? and of course Hamas never starts a conflict, right?

Correct, there is no evidence of Hamas using human shields. There is evidence of the IDF using human shields. Feel free to provide supporting links that prove me wrong.

The origins of this conflict go back to before Hamas, before Israel was formed and probably longer than that. Its pointless to try and figure out exactly what conflict started it. You could argue that because Hamas was started in response to the atrocities committed by Israel, then technically they haven't started anything, but its a fairly low bow to draw.

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and of course Hamas doesnt target civilians exclusively right?

Correct, of course they dont.

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Who exactly do you think your are conning?

Noone. A con implies that im telling lies or deceiving people. Im not. You can look it up for yourself if you want.

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Hamas fires missiles at Israeli civilian areas literaly from inside an apartmenet building filled with their own people and then you have the audacity to complain that they return fire? Israel isnt suicide bombing school buses. Hamas are.

Citation needed.

Yes. I understand this is a difficult thing to wrap your noggin around, so im not really expecting you get it on the first go. Obviously I would prefer it if noone was firing rockets at anyone, but the usual chain of events is something happens to trigger an attack, a rocket is fired, an Israeli civilian is wounded, the IDF then retaliates killing 10-100 Palestinians. Its the out of proportion response that I disagree with.

I found an article saying that Hamas bombed a school bus, after all the kids bar 1 had been let off, but it wasnt a suicide bomb attack. Do you want to know the final tally for that little tete a tete?

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but the incident was followed by a several-day stretch of violence in which Palestinians launched over 100 projectiles at Israel in which no Israelis were killed, and at least 20 Israeli strikes from its army, navy, and air force that left 19 dead and at least 45 wounded in Gaza by the time hostilities had ceased

Do you see where I am getting at now? Its ok, you will get there eventually.



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Israel even offered a two-state solution and were rejected.

Israel has a history of offering "solutions" that are in no way viable, rational or reasonable, and then because Hamas outright rejects that, as they should, Israel can turn around and say "HAH, see, its their fault they dont want peace"

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When the gaza invasion took place, the IDF phoned people in the area and told them to leave as well as letter-dropped the entire area to make it safe for locals. Do Hamas tell parents not to send their kids on a bus to schol because they plan to bomb it?
Do you deny any of this?

Yes. A lot of it. You are just plain wrong in some situations.

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Who puts 13yo boys and retarded women in suicide belts and sends them to Israeli positions - including shopping centres? Hamas. Who supplies Gaza with water and sewers? Israel.


You mean the people who are watching their nation die before their very eyes, looking on hopelessly as another nation takes their land, systematically oppresses them and then blames them for it? Make no mistake, the Palestinians are a very desperate people right now. If the status quo continues for much longer, they will cease to exist and the Israeli backed genocide will be complete. What would you do in their situation? Sit back and hope for the best?

Did you just use one of the ways they are oppressing the Palestinians as a good thing? Maybe they wouldn't have to supply the water (that is rightfully Palestinian) to the Palestinians if they didnt take so much of it for themselves.

Anyways, lazy wikipedia quote ahoy.

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Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities." Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.[51]

In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas’s use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of violence against Israel.[52] The party is known to financially support families of those who have been killed (including suicide bombers) or imprisoned while carrying out militant action or supporting such action. Families of militants not affiliated with Hamas sometimes receive less.[53]

Hamas has funded education as well as the health service, and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas.[54]

The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah.[55] Since the 2008–2009 Israeli military operation in Gaza, Palestinian public opinion polls have shown Hamas steadily increasing in popularity with 52% support compared to 13% for Fatah. All public opinion surveys conducted recently have supported this trend.[56]

Despite building materials needing to be smuggled into the territory, luxury beach resorts and tourist facilities operated by the interior ministry have been constructed by Hamas government linked charities which include gardens, playgrounds, football fields, a zoo and restaurants aimed to provide employment and low cost entertainment for citizens. Some Palestinians have complained about the admission fee, criticizing Hamas for charging them to use "government-owned" property.[57]


Those damn terrorists. How dare they build a zoo, and provide health care. The sheer nerve of them.

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I dont always defend their actions but any program (liek the BDS) that simply ignores atrocities liek Hamas commits is simply bias and racism. it is impossible to be anything else.


so tell me, why does the BDS ban anything from Syria or dont the 5000 people killed there mean anything? Why dont you ban anything from Gaza? no... just Israel.
The story is a long one. You are just the more recent teller.

anti-semitism

Because the BDS campaign was created to address the imbalance of power in the situation between Israel and Palestine. Why would I ban things from Gaza? That just doesnt make any sense.
No. Once again I realise this is a difficult notion to wrap your head around, but I have no problem with jews. I have a problem with a government that by all reports is subjugating another population under apartheid conditions, and is actively trying to exterminate a nation.
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#8 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Correct, there is no evidence of Hamas using human shields. There is evidence of the IDF using human shields. Feel free to provide supporting links that prove me wrong.

The origins of this conflict go back to before Hamas, before Israel was formed and probably longer than that. Its pointless to try and figure out exactly what conflict started it. You could argue that because Hamas was started in response to the atrocities committed by Israel, then technically they haven't started anything, but its a fairly low bow to draw.

Correct, of course they dont.


Noone. A con implies that im telling lies or deceiving people. Im not. You can look it up for yourself if you want.


Citation needed.

Yes. I understand this is a difficult thing to wrap your noggin around, so im not really expecting you get it on the first go. Obviously I would prefer it if noone was firing rockets at anyone, but the usual chain of events is something happens to trigger an attack, a rocket is fired, an Israeli civilian is wounded, the IDF then retaliates killing 10-100 Palestinians. Its the out of proportion response that I disagree with.

I found an article saying that Hamas bombed a school bus, after all the kids bar 1 had been let off, but it wasnt a suicide bomb attack. Do you want to know the final tally for that little tete a tete?
Do you see where I am getting at now? Its ok, you will get there eventually.




Israel has a history of offering "solutions" that are in no way viable, rational or reasonable, and then because Hamas outright rejects that, as they should, Israel can turn around and say "HAH, see, its their fault they dont want peace"


Yes. A lot of it. You are just plain wrong in some situations.



You mean the people who are watching their nation die before their very eyes, looking on hopelessly as another nation takes their land, systematically oppresses them and then blames them for it? Make no mistake, the Palestinians are a very desperate people right now. If the status quo continues for much longer, they will cease to exist and the Israeli backed genocide will be complete. What would you do in their situation? Sit back and hope for the best?

Did you just use one of the ways they are oppressing the Palestinians as a good thing? Maybe they wouldn't have to supply the water (that is rightfully Palestinian) to the Palestinians if they didnt take so much of it for themselves.

Anyways, lazy wikipedia quote ahoy.


Those damn terrorists. How dare they build a zoo, and provide health care. The sheer nerve of them.


Because the BDS campaign was created to address the imbalance of power in the situation between Israel and Palestine. Why would I ban things from Gaza? That just doesnt make any sense.
No. Once again I realise this is a difficult notion to wrap your head around, but I have no problem with jews. I have a problem with a government that by all reports is subjugating another population under apartheid conditions, and is actively trying to exterminate a nation.


well frogman if you are going to believe that Hamas dont use human shields or blow up school kids then there really isnt any purpose in discussing this further. You are quite simply a fool who choose to beleive what he wants. Where you get your level of disinformation is truly astonishing.

http://en.wikipedia....suicide_attacks

read and learn.
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#9 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:44 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

well frogman if you are going to believe that Hamas dont use human shields
Notice that I said "Feel free to provide supporting links that prove me wrong." Seeing as you either didnt or cant, I will assume that my point is valid. If it wasnt, surely you could have easily found a website or a link or something to say so. Google is just over there. Go for it. You can do it. I believe in you.

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or blow up school kids then there really isnt any purpose in discussing this further.

Point out the bit where I said this.

This gets back to that strawman thing I was talking about earlier. You are constructing an argument, and then attributing it to me, refuting that, and then declaring yourself the winner. Its lazy, its debating in bad faith, and it reeks of being unable to back up your own side.

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You are quite simply a fool who choose to beleive what he wants. Where you get your level of disinformation is truly astonishing.

View Postlongweekend58, on 12 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

It is an attribute of a weak argument and a weaker intelligence to attack the MESSENGER. If you wish to retain any credibility you will address the message like a grownup instead of a petulant child demanding more and more and faster and faster... whatever. And paid for by someone else.

Sorry, what were you saying?

Also, please point out exactly what I have said that is incorrect.


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Ohhhhh lists. I like lists. here is another one

http://en.wikipedia....ncerning_Israel
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#10 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:09 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Notice that I said "Feel free to provide supporting links that prove me wrong." Seeing as you either didnt or cant, I will assume that my point is valid. If it wasnt, surely you could have easily found a website or a link or something to say so. Google is just over there. Go for it. You can do it. I believe in you.


Point out the bit where I said this.

This gets back to that strawman thing I was talking about earlier. You are constructing an argument, and then attributing it to me, refuting that, and then declaring yourself the winner. Its lazy, its debating in bad faith, and it reeks of being unable to back up your own side.



Sorry, what were you saying?

Also, please point out exactly what I have said that is incorrect.



Ohhhhh lists. I like lists. here is another one

http://en.wikipedia....ncerning_Israel


UN resolutions... well of course they really count against proven reported terrorist attacks by Hamas. Don't come here trying to pretend in your teenage fashion that you somehow know what is going on despite all the evidence to the contrary. your mere assertion that Hamas doesnt use human shields or blow up school kids discredits you entirely. Fortunately, the australian people are not as gullible or misinformed as you. Hamas are terrorists and the BDS is an anti-semitic, pre-terrorist movement that the public hates and despises. And the Greens will be destroyed if they publically endorse it.
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#11 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:27 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

UN resolutions... well of course they really count against proven reported terrorist attacks by Hamas.
Im sensing a little bit of sarcasm here. Could you please explain your point. Are you really saying that a list of UN resolutions, going back nearly 50 years now, is invalid?

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Don't come here trying to pretend in your teenage fashion that you somehow know what is going on despite all the evidence to the contrary.
What evidence? You posted some? Where? I must have missed it.

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your mere assertion that Hamas doesnt use human shields or blow up school kids discredits you entirely.
Yet you cant post anything that refutes my assertions. Instead you just hope that everyone takes you at your word. Once again, point out where I said this. You and your strawman arguments are getting very long in the teeth

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Fortunately, the australian people are not as gullible or misinformed as you.
Nah I think they are.

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Hamas are terrorists

According to you.

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and the BDS is an anti-semitic, pre-terrorist movement that the public hates and despises.

According to you.

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And the Greens will be destroyed if they publically endorse it.
Possibly. They shouldnt be but hey, misinformed public ahoy.
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#12 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:32 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Im sensing a little bit of sarcasm here. Could you please explain your point. Are you really saying that a list of UN resolutions, going back nearly 50 years now, is invalid?

What evidence? You posted some? Where? I must have missed it.
Yet you cant post anything that refutes my assertions. Instead you just hope that everyone takes you at your word. Once again, point out where I said this. You and your strawman arguments are getting very long in the teeth

Nah I think they are.

According to you.

According to you.
Possibly. They shouldnt be but hey, misinformed public ahoy.


well you see it's like this... I posted a link of Hamas terrorist attacks and you simple stuck your fingers in your ears and went 'la la la, I cant hear you...'. Perhaps describing you as a teen was a bit ambitious...
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#13 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:41 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

well you see it's like this... I posted a link of Hamas terrorist attacks and you simple stuck your fingers in your ears and went 'la la la, I cant hear you...'. Perhaps describing you as a teen was a bit ambitious...

Ok. So you posted a list. Great. I posted a list in response that you went "lah lah lah this is invalid" and stuck your finger in your ears and refused to respond to the points raised. Again. Again you constructed your own version of my point and attacked that. Strawman. I honestly though you would have got the point about that, but apparently you haven't. Dont worry, I will still call you up on it each time you try to do that to my argument.

Just to reiterate. I dont think Hamas are blameless. They have done things that I could never comprehend simply because I have never been in their position, suicide bombing being on of them. Have you? If you havent how can you state that its all their fault. They have had a metaphorical boot at their necks for the last half century. What would you do in that situation? Their very existence as a people is at stake here. The same cannot be said for the other side.

However, what is plainly obvious to anyone who can be bothered to open their eyes is that there is a great power imbalance inherent in the situation and collective punishment is being metered out by an occupying force that a fair portion of people recognise as apartheid. That is what I oppose. I have, or can, provide ample links to examples of this. Would you like me to? Would that convince you to reexamine your position?
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#14 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:56 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Ok. So you posted a list. Great. I posted a list in response that you went "lah lah lah this is invalid" and stuck your finger in your ears and refused to respond to the points raised. Again. Again you constructed your own version of my point and attacked that. Strawman. I honestly though you would have got the point about that, but apparently you haven't. Dont worry, I will still call you up on it each time you try to do that to my argument.

Just to reiterate. I dont think Hamas are blameless. They have done things that I could never comprehend simply because I have never been in their position, suicide bombing being on of them. Have you? If you havent how can you state that its all their fault. They have had a metaphorical boot at their necks for the last half century. What would you do in that situation? Their very existence as a people is at stake here. The same cannot be said for the other side.

However, what is plainly obvious to anyone who can be bothered to open their eyes is that there is a great power imbalance inherent in the situation and collective punishment is being metered out by an occupying force that a fair portion of people recognise as apartheid. That is what I oppose. I have, or can, provide ample links to examples of this. Would you like me to? Would that convince you to reexamine your position?


So you have finally recognised that Hamas has done a few 'naughty things'? Like deliberately targetting and killing children? how brave. and somehow you think that entitles them to not be held accountable? Hey bozo, what do you think happend when Israel was formed? Teh arabs attacked them the same day - and lost. and several times since thenn they have started wars against Israel - and lost. the palestinians keep attacking Israel - and losing. There's a pattern here. Perhaps the opponents could try this new concpet called peace. Gaza was offered statehood but refused. WHAT??? so here they are demanding peace and independence and they get offered just that and they refuse?

But even this is not the point. the BDS blatantly ignores all other terrorist activities against Israel and seeks to blame just one side and ironically, the victims. Israel does not launch attacks - it responds. It is self-defence. That is a fair and reasonable right. You cannot support a policy that condemns only one side of a conflict and consider it a reasonable and balanced position. BDS is simply bias and racism. It condemns not the IDF or the politicians but Israelis themselves. By every definition of the word, the BDS is racism pure and simple. and it is overwhelmingly despised by the australian people.

And I find it hard to understand anyone - even you - supporting a regime that fires from behind women and children and invites retaliation at a school building. you gloss over this crimes against humanity. Why is that?
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#15 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

View Postlongweekend58, on 16 April 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

So you have finally recognised that Hamas has done a few 'naughty things'? Like deliberately targetting and killing children? how brave. and somehow you think that entitles them to not be held accountable?


No. You are wrong. Again. At no point have I used the phrase "naughty things". At no point was did I say Hamas should not be held to account. This is constructing an argument that I didnt make and then using that. Its called strawmanning. Its bad. Stop it.

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Hey bozo, what do you think happend when Israel was formed? Teh arabs attacked them the same day - and lost. and several times since thenn they have started wars against Israel - and lost. the palestinians keep attacking Israel - and losing. There's a pattern here.
So what about all the wars that Israel has started? Do they just get a free pass for those? Also, Israel is the aggressor in a whole bunch of these wars, including the 6 day war and the entire Lebanon fiasco, and is by no means the innocent victim as it attempts to portray itself.

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Perhaps the opponents could try this new concpet called peace. Gaza was offered statehood but refused. WHAT??? so here they are demanding peace and independence and they get offered just that and they refuse?
What about all the times that Hamas has offered peace, and had it been rejected? Is that just swept under the table? Do you even realise what they have offered? What about the times that Israel comes to the table with demands that no sane nation would ever meet? Is that Israel being the victim again?

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But even this is not the point. the BDS blatantly ignores all other terrorist activities against Israel and seeks to blame just one side and ironically, the victims. Israel does not launch attacks - it responds. It is self-defence. That is a fair and reasonable right.
Explain to me how Israel is the victim here. Use facts and figures. Cite pages. I dont mind if you use wikipedia. Pretend I have no concept of the whole conflict.

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You cannot support a policy that condemns only one side of a conflict and consider it a reasonable and balanced position. BDS is simply bias and racism. It condemns not the IDF or the politicians but Israelis themselves. By every definition of the word, the BDS is racism pure and simple. and it is overwhelmingly despised by the australian people.


The BDS campaign has three stated causes

1) Freeing all Palestinian territories from Israeli influence since 1967 and dismantling the Israeli West Bank barrier
2) Acting towards the rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel
3) Promoting the interests of Palestinian refugees in reference to the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948

Explain to me how that is racist.

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And I find it hard to understand anyone - even you - supporting a regime that fires from behind women and children and invites retaliation at a school building. you gloss over this crimes against humanity. Why is that?
You seem to be doing just fine. The documented crimes of against humanity that Israel has committed is fairly long and extensive. You gloss over a whole bunch of stuff. Why is that?
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#16 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostFrogman, on 16 April 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

No. You are wrong. Again. At no point have I used the phrase "naughty things". At no point was did I say Hamas should not be held to account. This is constructing an argument that I didnt make and then using that. Its called strawmanning. Its bad. Stop it.

So what about all the wars that Israel has started? Do they just get a free pass for those? Also, Israel is the aggressor in a whole bunch of these wars, including the 6 day war and the entire Lebanon fiasco, and is by no means the innocent victim as it attempts to portray itself.

What about all the times that Hamas has offered peace, and had it been rejected? Is that just swept under the table? Do you even realise what they have offered? What about the times that Israel comes to the table with demands that no sane nation would ever meet? Is that Israel being the victim again?

Explain to me how Israel is the victim here. Use facts and figures. Cite pages. I dont mind if you use wikipedia. Pretend I have no concept of the whole conflict.



The BDS campaign has three stated causes

1) Freeing all Palestinian territories from Israeli influence since 1967 and dismantling the Israeli West Bank barrier
2) Acting towards the rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel
3) Promoting the interests of Palestinian refugees in reference to the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948

Explain to me how that is racist.

You seem to be doing just fine. The documented crimes of against humanity that Israel has committed is fairly long and extensive. You gloss over a whole bunch of stuff. Why is that?


The trouble here is that you START form a position of extreme bias and you can at best be dragged to a position of 'very biased'. An example is that while you talk about UN resolutions (which pretty much every country ignores anyhow) and get all upset about that, you say virtually nothing about suicide bombing of school buses by Hamas even initially trying to claim they didnt happen. That doesnt build your credibility up very far. The BDS is undeniably one-sided which as a policy can only be credible if the dispute is one-sided. It would be beyond ludicrous to suggest that - although Im fairly sure you will do just that. When Hamas has murdered thousands of israelis and actually targets civilians rather than military then they have certainly surrendered any right to be portrayed as 'poor victims'.

The problem is a complex one and wil lnever be resolved by the simplistic stupidity of things like the BDS. No one in any position of authority is ever going to take notice of such an obviously biased concept. You can criticise Israel all you like - and obviously will - but you cannot say Hamas is anywhere near guiltfree or a victim. When it fires missiles at residential areas then have no right to complain when ISrael hits back a lot harder. Just like in a argument in real life, if I throw a punch at a hells Angel, I dont have a right to expect him to hit me back no harder than I hit him. If I am stupid enough to attack someone three times my size and armed to the teeth then I deserve all I get. So does Hamas.

And one final point. There have been (I think) 14 or 15 ceasefires and Hamas has broken every one. Their offers of 'peace' only ever come after they've been beaten (again) and want time to recover and rearm. They dont WANT peace. If they did, they would take the two-state solution. And they are stupid enough to act as proxy soldiers for other arab states who happily arm them against Israel because they are too cowardly (and sick of being beaten) to fight themselves.

You think you know all about the conflict. You don't. You know your own opinion and little more.
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#17 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:43 AM

View Postlongweekend58, on 17 April 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

The trouble here is that you START form a position of extreme bias and you can at best be dragged to a position of 'very biased'. An example is that while you talk about UN resolutions (which pretty much every country ignores anyhow) and get all upset about that, you say virtually nothing about suicide bombing of school buses by Hamas even initially trying to claim they didnt happen. That doesnt build your credibility up very far. The BDS is undeniably one-sided which as a policy can only be credible if the dispute is one-sided. It would be beyond ludicrous to suggest that - although Im fairly sure you will do just that. When Hamas has murdered thousands of israelis and actually targets civilians rather than military then they have certainly surrendered any right to be portrayed as 'poor victims'.

The trouble here is that you are not backing up anything you state. You too are starting from a position of extreme bias, only you are supporting the people in the position of power.

You still haven't provided proof that Hamas has suicide bombed a school bus. They have suicide bombed several buses in their time, the majority of which carried military personnel. They have launched a rocket attack against a school bus, after all bar one of the students had left the buss. Its this intentional deception, the slight twisting of events to make Hamas appear worse, and the IDF to appear better, that is most galling. You are, in effect, lying to everyone here, but have projected that onto me. I have repeatedly called for you to cite your sources, back up your story, and make it more than just bullshit spewing from your mouth, but you either can't, or wont. Which is it? If you cant back anything up, just say so.

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The problem is a complex one and wil lnever be resolved by the simplistic stupidity of things like the BDS. No one in any position of authority is ever going to take notice of such an obviously biased concept. You can criticise Israel all you like - and obviously will - but you cannot say Hamas is anywhere near guiltfree or a victim. When it fires missiles at residential areas then have no right to complain when ISrael hits back a lot harder. Just like in a argument in real life, if I throw a punch at a hells Angel, I dont have a right to expect him to hit me back no harder than I hit him. If I am stupid enough to attack someone three times my size and armed to the teeth then I deserve all I get. So does Hamas.
I think you are the only person who thinks the BDS is aimed at resolving the conflict. I posted the stated goals of the BDS campaign a couple of posts ago. Would you like me to restate them, so you can ignore them again?

Point out the bit where I have said Hamas is guilt free. That does not mean they cannot be the victims here.

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And one final point. There have been (I think) 14 or 15 ceasefires and Hamas has broken every one.

Its this bald faced lying that I object to. If you havent heard about Operation Cast Lead, I suggest you read up a bit on it. Especially the bit about Israel attacking first, which would lead me to believe that you are full of it.

Quote

Their offers of 'peace' only ever come after they've been beaten (again) and want time to recover and rearm. They dont WANT peace. If they did, they would take the two-state solution. And they are stupid enough to act as proxy soldiers for other arab states who happily arm them against Israel because they are too cowardly (and sick of being beaten) to fight themselves.
No. You are wrong. Again.

http://www.telegraph...e-proposal.html

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Indeed, for the Palestinians the entire offer seems to be proof that Mr Netanyahu is adept at appearing to give them what they want while exacting so high a price that it becomes impossible to accept.
Goes to show what I have been saying all along. Israel will state that they are happy to come to the peace table, but make preconditions so onerous that no sane negotiator would ever accept them.

The two state solution that has been offered by Israel in the past has indeed been a two state solution, but not one any sane person would accept. Because of the whole settler issue (which is against international law, but hey, Israel has broken so many of those, who is counting?) Israel wants to annex massive portions of the arable land, and give back equal portions of country that isn't worth much, like the Negev. Its not a fair swap, its a swap no sane person would ever accept, and the Israel, and its supports, turn around and trumpet that its the Palestinians fault for not accepting it.


Quote

You think you know all about the conflict. You don't. You know your own opinion and little more.

Feel free to correct anything I have said with cites and sources of your own. Until you do so, you are blustering a whole lot, but not even attempting to convince anyone else, let alone me.
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#18 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:56 AM

View PostFrogman, on 18 April 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

The trouble here is that you are not backing up anything you state. You too are starting from a position of extreme bias, only you are supporting the people in the position of power.

You still haven't provided proof that Hamas has suicide bombed a school bus. They have suicide bombed several buses in their time, the majority of which carried military personnel. They have launched a rocket attack against a school bus, after all bar one of the students had left the buss. Its this intentional deception, the slight twisting of events to make Hamas appear worse, and the IDF to appear better, that is most galling. You are, in effect, lying to everyone here, but have projected that onto me. I have repeatedly called for you to cite your sources, back up your story, and make it more than just bullshit spewing from your mouth, but you either can't, or wont. Which is it? If you cant back anything up, just say so.

I think you are the only person who thinks the BDS is aimed at resolving the conflict. I posted the stated goals of the BDS campaign a couple of posts ago. Would you like me to restate them, so you can ignore them again?

Point out the bit where I have said Hamas is guilt free. That does not mean they cannot be the victims here.

Its this bald faced lying that I object to. If you havent heard about Operation Cast Lead, I suggest you read up a bit on it. Especially the bit about Israel attacking first, which would lead me to believe that you are full of it.

No. You are wrong. Again.

http://www.telegraph...e-proposal.html

Goes to show what I have been saying all along. Israel will state that they are happy to come to the peace table, but make preconditions so onerous that no sane negotiator would ever accept them.

The two state solution that has been offered by Israel in the past has indeed been a two state solution, but not one any sane person would accept. Because of the whole settler issue (which is against international law, but hey, Israel has broken so many of those, who is counting?) Israel wants to annex massive portions of the arable land, and give back equal portions of country that isn't worth much, like the Negev. Its not a fair swap, its a swap no sane person would ever accept, and the Israel, and its supports, turn around and trumpet that its the Palestinians fault for not accepting it.



Feel free to correct anything I have said with cites and sources of your own. Until you do so, you are blustering a whole lot, but not even attempting to convince anyone else, let alone me.


http://www.adl.org/i...ael_attacks.asp

Ive already quoted links to Hamas terrorist attacks and you have chosen to ignore them. The above contains several attacks on buses full of school children as well as hundreds of other attacks. You will also notice a disturbingly common theme that the attacks are made against unarmed civilians. Go ahead... defend it. My point remains that the BDS attempts to punish just one side of a conflict and exonerate Hamas. Is it any wonder that the vast majority of Australians reject such actions? A full 7% of NSW voters changed their vote FROM the Greens specifically in response to the BDS. and that 7% was actually approx 40% of the Greens votes. So thatr is how 'popular' the BDS is. And why not? why would any australian support a policy that seeks to exonerate terrorism?
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#19 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

View Postlongweekend58, on 18 April 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

http://www.adl.org/i...ael_attacks.asp

Ive already quoted links to Hamas terrorist attacks and you have chosen to ignore them. The above contains several attacks on buses full of school children as well as hundreds of other attacks. You will also notice a disturbingly common theme that the attacks are made against unarmed civilians. Go ahead... defend it. My point remains that the BDS attempts to punish just one side of a conflict and exonerate Hamas. Is it any wonder that the vast majority of Australians reject such actions? A full 7% of NSW voters changed their vote FROM the Greens specifically in response to the BDS. and that 7% was actually approx 40% of the Greens votes. So thatr is how 'popular' the BDS is. And why not? why would any australian support a policy that seeks to exonerate terrorism?

Again, you are constructing arguments that I did not make. I specifically responded to the last time you posted a link, which was acknowledged in the post after it, which makes your claim of ignoring them a little difficult to process. I did not give an indepth response, because at the time, I believed it wasnt worth it.

http://occupiedpales...n-palestinians/

Thats a list of a massacres Israel has perpetrated against the Palestinians. At what point does this he-said-she-said nonsense make a point. Both sides are in the wrong. Both sides have done horrible things. I have never said otherwise. What I have said, and you seem to be intent on ignoring, is that there is a massive imbalance in the power structure and Israel is exploiting it for all its worth. In doing so, Israel is running the risk of becoming the very thing they fought against.
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#20 User is offline   longweekend58 

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

View PostFrogman, on 18 April 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Again, you are constructing arguments that I did not make. I specifically responded to the last time you posted a link, which was acknowledged in the post after it, which makes your claim of ignoring them a little difficult to process. I did not give an indepth response, because at the time, I believed it wasnt worth it.

http://occupiedpales...n-palestinians/

Thats a list of a massacres Israel has perpetrated against the Palestinians. At what point does this he-said-she-said nonsense make a point. Both sides are in the wrong. Both sides have done horrible things. I have never said otherwise. What I have said, and you seem to be intent on ignoring, is that there is a massive imbalance in the power structure and Israel is exploiting it for all its worth. In doing so, Israel is running the risk of becoming the very thing they fought against.


A) it is a BLOG therefore the credibility can be questioned and even if you accept that, the objectivity is clearly not there.

B) so even if you accept that 'both sides are at fault', how can you possible support a BDS which blatantly blames only one side? THAT is the core of the argument. any policy or process that ignores one side totally is inherently biased and racist. There is no alternative description.
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