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Hunting: does it help to control feral animals?

#1 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:54 AM

David Shoebridge of the Greens doesn't think so:

Quote

Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: They then put forward a radical pro-gun, pro-hunting agenda. As a result of 10 years of subsidies from the State Government they are now in a position to use their two votes in this Chamber to provide, for the first time ever, for the appalling precedent of allowing amateur hunters in national parks. But that comes on top of 10 years of amateur hunters having access to our State forests. Two million hectares of State forests have been opened up to amateur hunting. What has been the effectiveness of those 10 years of wide-scale hunting in our State forests by amateur hunters? Not one feral animal population has been controlled or eradicated by amateur hunters. There is not one example in one State forest of these weekend cowboys effectively removing or reducing a single feral animal species. And now they are being given access to 79 national parks and conservation areas. There is no evidence to support what amateur hunters have done in State forests.


This is [part of] the transcript of a speech delivered in NSW Parliament on 21 June 2012. It can be seen in its original context here Original

David seems to be getting a bit emotional and a tad misleading, particularly with "There is no evidence to support what amateur hunters have done in State forests".

Every fox or other feral killed is a great help.
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#2 User is offline   Frogman 

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

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On behalf of The Greens I place on record The Greens strong opposition to the Game and Feral Animal Control Amendment Bill 2012. This bill is a betrayal by the Premier. He has betrayed his promise to the people of New South Wales that he would not allow hunting in national parks. He repeatedly said—I assume he did not use this language to try to deceive the people of New South Wales—that he would not allow shooting in national parks, nor would he allow national parks to become de facto game parks.

I assume that you will be jumping up and down screaming "liar liar pants on fire" at the Lib who broke his promise tho? Just to show some moral consistency? No? Why not? No reason? Thought so.

http://www.nccnsw.or...ot-conservation

Quote

“Primary Industries Minister Katrina Hodgkinson will give recreational hunters access to 142 state
forests over the next decade despite no credible evidence ad hoc, amateur hunting is an effective
method of feral animal control,” said CEO Pepe Clarke.

“In fact, recreational shooting can disperse or make feral animals wary and more difficult to control
with other methods. Hunters may also undermine effective control measures because they want to
maintain a hunting resource.

So we have an increased risk of people dying, for no tangible benefit and no evidence supporting your theory, but a valid hypothesis to counter it. Oh whats this?

http://www.coffscoas...spx?storypage=0

Quote

"The interests of the many people who currently use our National Parks safely without the risk of being shot have been represented. There is no evidence that ground-based private shooting is effective in controlling feral animals," Councillor Mark Graham said.

"There is lots of evidence that shooting is dangerous and numerous fatalities have occurred in recent decades. Coffs Harbour City Council has voted unanimously to oppose private shooting in National Parks and will inform the Premier and the Environment Minister of this opposition."

Admittedly I couldn't find their evidence in the 5 minutes or so it took to write this up, but hey, neither did you so whatevs. I mean, you are arguing in good faith yeah? You are willing to have your preconceived notions challenged with an open mind, yeah?

Also, can you support your statements? I would especially like you to rebutt the whole no evidence thing. I mean, surely if you know he is being misleading, you must have the evidence to counter his claim.
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#3 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:19 PM

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Every fox or other feral killed is a great help.


No references or citations needed, every person with a modicum of common sense knows
that if one kills a fox it's not going to breed nor is it going to continue to kill native wildlife,

Don't you think that foxes eat and breed?
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#4 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:06 PM

Your very recent comment is noted Roderick, and it did not take me especially long to comprehend.

View PostRoderick, on 27 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

David Shoebridge of the Greens doesn't think so:

Quote

Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: ......... There is not one example in one State forest of these weekend cowboys effectively removing or reducing a single feral animal species



What are we talking here, a belief that ferals are bulletproof or a request for the provision of feral scalps on a plate to prove otherwise?
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#5 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:55 PM

Just been out for an hour and a half and we shot three vixens; there's a fair few native animals saved.

Has David Nhoebridge done as much for the environment today?
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#6 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:55 PM

Of course, foxes and rabbits would not have been introduced in the first place if it wasn't for upper class British settlers of the 19th century wanting something familiar to hunt.
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#7 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:02 AM

View PostBam, on 27 June 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Of course, foxes and rabbits would not have been introduced in the first place if it wasn't for upper class British settlers of the 19th century wanting something familiar to hunt.

Very true but in recent times they would not have prospered so well if the Greens and their fellow travelers had not killed the fur fashion industry.
Not that they didn't act in good will as the upper end of the fur business had some rather nasty practices, but the law of unintended consequences clicked in and there was no longer a demand for fox skins.
Hunting foxes lost its economic appeal and as a consequence only the dedicated conservationists continued to hunt them along with rabbit hunters who got an opportunistic shot at a fox.
Fox numbers boomed, which in itself is proof that hunting kept the numbers down.

Killing foxes with firearms is still the most humane way to thin their numbers; advocates of other methods ought to watch an animal die from ingesting 1080 poison.
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#8 User is offline   Green One 

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:26 PM

This is my very first post and I think that kiling any animal is wrong.
Foxes have as much right to live as other animals do.

Do you get pleasure out of kiling Gods creatures?
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#9 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:59 PM

View PostGreen One, on 10 August 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

This is my very first post and I think that kiling any animal is wrong.
Foxes have as much right to live as other animals do.

Do you get pleasure out of kiling Gods creatures?


Welcome to the forum.

Yes, the feral pests like wild dogs, wild pigs, feral goats, cats and foxes.
I particularly like hare to eat and venison as well.
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#10 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:34 PM

View PostGreen One, on 10 August 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

This is my very first post and I think that kiling any animal is wrong.
Foxes have as much right to live as other animals do.

They do, but not in Australia. Foxes in Australia do so much harm to native wildlife that many species of Australian native animals are threatened with extinction due to fox predation like the bilby and the numbat. We by our actions in introducing the fox have brought this harm. Sometimes one must eliminate feral animals for the greater good.

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Do you get pleasure out of kiling Gods creatures?

Hunters may get some pleasure out of the good they do, such as when a threatened species of animal is able to be reintroduced into areas from where it had previously been extirpated due to fox activity.
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#11 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

View PostGreen One, on 10 August 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

This is my very first post and I think that kiling any animal is wrong.
Foxes have as much right to live as other animals do.

Do you get pleasure out of kiling Gods creatures?

I guess first I have to say: assuming there is a God.

But second: I think it would be a rare person who feels happy about killing anything. But there are some important issues at stake; though at the same time I'm not sure that foxes are actually one of the most destructive pests.
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#12 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

View Postscotto, on 13 August 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

I guess first I have to say: assuming there is a God.

But second: I think it would be a rare person who feels happy about killing anything. But there are some important issues at stake; though at the same time I'm not sure that foxes are actually one of the most destructive pests.


I must be rare because I feel happy about killing foxes, and feral cats, dogs and pigs.
I am particularly happy when I kill a prime hare, I immediately look forward to the dish in which it is to be the centre piece.

When I kill a red back spider under a dunny seat I am more than happy, I'm vastly relieved especially if I was about to sit enthroned. I also kill fleas and mosquitoes with abandon and satisfaction. Bull ants in the house also get short shift.
I must also admit to satisfaction, perhaps bordering on happiness, when we have a successful rat hunt with air rifles in someone's hay shed.
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#13 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:53 AM

View PostRoderick, on 13 August 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I must be rare because I feel happy about killing foxes, and feral cats, dogs and pigs.
I am particularly happy when I kill a prime hare, I immediately look forward to the dish in which it is to be the centre piece.

When I kill a red back spider under a dunny seat I am more than happy, I'm vastly relieved especially if I was about to sit enthroned. I also kill fleas and mosquitoes with abandon and satisfaction. Bull ants in the house also get short shift.
I must also admit to satisfaction, perhaps bordering on happiness, when we have a successful rat hunt with air rifles in someone's hay shed.

Gee. So happy.
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#14 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:17 PM

Bam said:

green one said:

Do you get pleasure out of kiling Gods creatures?

Hunters may get some pleasure out of the good they do, such as when a threatened species of animal is able to be reintroduced into areas from where it had previously been extirpated due to fox activity.


Good to see you giving Roderick (and his position) a bit of a deserved backslap Bam!

View PostRoderick, on 13 August 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I must be rare because I feel happy about killing foxes, and feral cats, dogs and pigs.
I am particularly happy when I kill a prime hare, I immediately look forward to the dish in which it is to be the centre piece.

When I kill a red back spider under a dunny seat I am more than happy, I'm vastly relieved especially if I was about to sit enthroned. I also kill fleas and mosquitoes with abandon and satisfaction. Bull ants in the house also get short shift.
I must also admit to satisfaction, perhaps bordering on happiness, when we have a successful rat hunt with air rifles in someone's hay shed.


I wish you an abundance of joy! :D
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#15 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:27 AM

View Posticey, on 13 August 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Good to see you giving Roderick (and his position) a bit of a deserved backslap Bam!

I wish you an abundance of joy! :D

Can't say that he's really supporting that position.
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#16 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

View Posticey, on 13 August 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Good to see you giving Roderick (and his position) a bit of a deserved backslap Bam!

Not so much of a backslap but more providing some support in the context of removing harmful feral animals. I have enough rural experience to know the harm that feral animals can do.
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#17 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:21 PM

Some news of hunters in the running for citizen of the year awards.... or is that "shitizen of the year"? They shot a number of kangaroos in front of families camping in the area.

Note that this article lists a number of instances of killing of native animals by hunters.
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#18 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:08 PM

View Postscotto, on 16 August 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Some news of hunters in the running for citizen of the year awards.... or is that "shitizen of the year"? They shot a number of kangaroos in front of families camping in the area.

Note that this article lists a number of instances of killing of native animals by hunters.

This shows quite clearly that hunters can be just as reckless with the law as any other citizen. I'll comment on a few points from the article:

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It's understood that the 'Firearms Prohibited' sign at the entrance to the campground had been run over and smashed, but all other signs were intact.

Whether the sign is smashed is irrelevant. If it is designated as a no-go area for hunting, the area retains its designation whether the sign is visible or not. To allow otherwise would make it possible for someone to remove the sign, then return later with firearms and shoot animals with impunity. Removing the sign does not make it legal to hunt there.

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However, while the Bill has been passed it has yet to be enacted, and when it is enacted hunters will be required to apply for a specific licence and adhere to regulations overseen by Game Council NSW.

The penalty for using firearms in a no-firearms national park without the appropriate licence should be severe - cancellation of any gun licences for a set period and restrictions after the bans are lifted. It would be like a serious indiscretion with a motor vehicle, and for much the same reasons: guns and cars are both deadly if used incorrectly and in severe cases a cancellation of the right to use them is appropriate. The most severe indiscretions should attract jail terms: people are killed, injured or shot at, protected wildlife killed or any animal treated cruelly.

Hunters who have the correct licences and hunt in the correct locations would not be affected, of course. However the onus should be on the hunters to ensure that they are allowed to hunt where they plan to hunt.
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#19 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

One can only unreservedly condemn the actions of poachers who break the law, and by definition poachers break the law.

There are already severe penalties for the actions described in the article; cancellation of licence, forfeiture of firearms and any associated gear plus fines and/or imprisonment.

Unlike similar actions with cars the penalty is cancellation of the licence for five years.

Let us all hope that these bastards are brought to justice, but don't hold your collective breaths.
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#20 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:54 PM

Kind of puts paid to that whole 'gun owners are generally more law abiding' idea. As well as the question of whether hunters will do the right thing.
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