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Hunting: does it help to control feral animals?

#21 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:08 PM

View Postscotto, on 16 August 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Kind of puts paid to that whole 'gun owners are generally more law abiding' idea. As well as the question of whether hunters will do the right thing.

Licenced gun owners are more law abiding than the general public and have been judged so by the Commissioner(s) of Police.
Hunters will do the right thing it's the illegal hunters, or poachers, that are the problem.

One might also wonder at the sudden spate of illegal hunting.
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#22 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:15 PM

View PostRoderick, on 16 August 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Licenced gun owners are more law abiding than the general public and have been judged so by the Commissioner(s) of Police.
Hunters will do the right thing it's the illegal hunters, or poachers, that are the problem.

One might also wonder at the sudden spate of illegal hunting.

Right.... It's those evil unlicensed guys. Of course.
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#23 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostRoderick, on 16 August 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Let us all hope that these bastards are brought to justice, but don't hold your collective breaths.

On that I think we can all agree.
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#24 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

View Postscotto, on 16 August 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Right.... It's those evil unlicensed guys. Of course.

Yes, you're right.

Bye the way, could you get a Firearms Licence, are you such a trusted member of the community?
Does the Commissioner of Police trust you to have a lethal weapon in your possession?
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#25 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:44 AM

View PostRoderick, on 16 August 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yes, you're right.

Bye the way, could you get a Firearms Licence, are you such a trusted member of the community?
Does the Commissioner of Police trust you to have a lethal weapon in your possession?

Obviously you have no way of knowing if these hunters had a license or not. Likely as not they did. Poachers can have licenses too.

I don't think I could have a gun as I don't visit a range, own a farm, etc.
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#26 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:35 AM

View Postscotto, on 17 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Obviously you have no way of knowing if these hunters had a license or not. Likely as not they did. Poachers can have licenses too.

I don't think I could have a gun as I don't visit a range, own a farm, etc.

But the odds are that they aren't licenced as licenced shooters tend to be the better citizens and,besides which, they would not wish to jeopardize their licences nor to have their, often very valuable, firearms confiscated without recompense.

Why do you say "likely as not they did"?
Reason is against the proposition, so one could assume that your statement is backed by nothing more than prejudice or ignorance of licenced firearm owners.

If you want the status of 'Trusted Citizen' all that you need to do is join a club and pass all the necessary requirements; takes a while but well worth it, especially in terms of human interaction; meet a lot of nice people.
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#27 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:11 AM

View PostRoderick, on 17 August 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

But the odds are that they aren't licenced as licenced shooters tend to be the better citizens and,besides which, they would not wish to jeopardize their licences nor to have their, often very valuable, firearms confiscated without recompense.

Why do you say "likely as not they did"?
Reason is against the proposition, so one could assume that your statement is backed by nothing more than prejudice or ignorance of licenced firearm owners.

If you want the status of 'Trusted Citizen' all that you need to do is join a club and pass all the necessary requirements; takes a while but well worth it, especially in terms of human interaction; meet a lot of nice people.

Okay, so one judge, somewhere, sometime, said that he thought that licensed gun owners were more law abiding. So what. He may or may not have been correct. That I know there is absolutely no data pertaining to this idea, and certainly that judge would only have been speaking out of his own experience, which is not a statistically reliable guide. But you can keep consoling yourself with it, no problem.

I say 'likely as not they did' as I think it is much more likely these days that anyone who has a gun also has a licence. It's a balance of probablities thing.

Yes, I've been part of a firearm club before, it was all very pleasant and I did enjoy myself. I have nothing against them.
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#28 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:32 AM

View Postscotto, on 17 August 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Okay, so one judge, somewhere, sometime, said that he thought that licensed gun owners were more law abiding. So what. He may or may not have been correct. That I know there is absolutely no data pertaining to this idea, and certainly that judge would only have been speaking out of his own experience, which is not a statistically reliable guide. But you can keep consoling yourself with it, no problem.

I say 'likely as not they did' as I think it is much more likely these days that anyone who has a gun also has a licence. It's a balance of probablities thing.

Yes, I've been part of a firearm club before, it was all very pleasant and I did enjoy myself. I have nothing against them.


Not relying on a judge but on the fact that there are so many licences issued and so few cancelled.
Obviously the majority of licence holders are law abiding or the police are not doing their job and the law is breaking down. I doubt that the perps of all the drive by shootings are licence holders nor those who poach in State Forests, National Parks and on private property are licenced.

It is far more likely these days that gun owners do not have a licence as the number of firearms handed in during the Buy Back came nowhere near the number of guns, that became illegal, that had been imported, particularly from China, with the encouragement and blessing of the Commonwealth Govt.
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#29 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:40 AM

Well there you go then. When you say China are you talking about the SSK imports that were popular at one stage? I didn't see in any of the reports that these were the kind used in the shootings witnessed on the south coast.

Do I think the drive by shooters have licences? Not likely. Do I think it's a good idea for everyone in the street to have a handgun so they can blast away and likely kill their neighbours? Not in any sense.

Regarding the hunters - first, I do think it's very likely that at least some have licenses. Second, whether the wankers in question do or not in one sense is moot - it paints an appalling picture to the public of anyone who even wants to own a gun; more of this will see hunters in general seen in the same light as politicians and used car salesmen, if not worse. So the gun-owning community needs to get its shit together in a major way.
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#30 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:39 PM

I didn't say only China, there are lots 'n lots from other places as well that are unaccounted for, then there are the stolen long arms which don't seem to be appearing on the streets.
We might ask also if some of these very convenient 'hunting' incidents are not the work of anti-hunting groups.

The legal gun owning community is getting it together, NSW shooters are the only ones in the world with their own political party that has elected MsP..
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#31 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:17 PM

View PostRoderick, on 17 August 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Not relying on a judge but on the fact that there are so many licences issued and so few cancelled.
Obviously the majority of licence holders are law abiding or the police are not doing their job and the law is breaking down.

The police not catching everyone that breaks the law is a much more plausible possibility.

Quote

I doubt that the perps of all the drive by shootings are licence holders nor those who poach in State Forests, National Parks and on private property are licenced.

Most likely this is correct. However, I also doubt that no licensed shooter is ever responsible for misusing a firearm, considering that licences do get cancelled.
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#32 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:03 PM

View PostBam, on 19 August 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

The police not catching everyone that breaks the law is a much more plausible possibility.


Most likely this is correct. However, I also doubt that no licensed shooter is ever responsible for misusing a firearm, considering that licences do get cancelled.

But very few are cancelled and not only for misusing a firearm.
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#33 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:29 AM

View PostRoderick, on 19 August 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

I didn't say only China, there are lots 'n lots from other places as well that are unaccounted for, then there are the stolen long arms which don't seem to be appearing on the streets.
We might ask also if some of these very convenient 'hunting' incidents are not the work of anti-hunting groups.

The legal gun owning community is getting it together, NSW shooters are the only ones in the world with their own political party that has elected MsP..

I think it's the whole gun owning community that needs to get its shit together. There are obviously a lot of idiots out there. Disowning the 'illegals' doesn't help anyone.

And.... We're back to the conspiracies, I see. Anti hunting groups staging shootings. It's a theme just keeps come back.
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#34 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:01 AM

View Postscotto, on 20 August 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think it's the whole gun owning community that needs to get its shit together. There are obviously a lot of idiots out there. Disowning the 'illegals' doesn't help anyone.

And.... We're back to the conspiracies, I see. Anti hunting groups staging shootings. It's a theme just keeps come back.

Just what percentage of idiots is a lot; are you going on media reports or the official figures for legal gun ownership?

Anti-hunting groups doing shootings, why not?
The 'roo shooting episode in front of campers, who one would presume had mobile 'phones as well as cameras, shews rather a desire for quick publicity than 'roo meat or skins.

They've lied in the past and the recent past and the Greens keep using the drive-by shootings in Sydney as an excuse to attack the legal ownership of semi-automatic pistols.
The Greens and others have anti-hunting agendas.
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#35 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:11 AM

View PostRoderick, on 20 August 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Just what percentage of idiots is a lot; are you going on media reports or the official figures for legal gun ownership?

Anti-hunting groups doing shootings, why not?
The 'roo shooting episode in front of campers, who one would presume had mobile 'phones as well as cameras, shews rather a desire for quick publicity than 'roo meat or skins.

They've lied in the past and the recent past and the Greens keep using the drive-by shootings in Sydney as an excuse to attack the legal ownership of semi-automatic pistols.
The Greens and others have anti-hunting agendas.

I'm not differentiating between legal and illegal, mainly because it is impossible to tell if the wankers shooting native animals lately have licences - they have run away, haven't they? So it is obivuosly far too many, whatever the objective number.

Right. More conspiracy stuff. Of course it was greenies. Probably communist greenies, watermelons. Probably vegetarian lesbian communist greenie watermelons.
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#36 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:01 AM

View Postscotto, on 20 August 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I'm not differentiating between legal and illegal, mainly because it is impossible to tell if the wankers shooting native animals lately have licences - they have run away, haven't they? So it is obivuosly far too many, whatever the objective number.

Right. More conspiracy stuff. Of course it was greenies. Probably communist greenies, watermelons. Probably vegetarian lesbian communist greenie watermelons.

That's just it there is no way to tell if the illegal shooters have licences but the odds are thatthey do not because of the potential loss if they are caught.
No one that has invested time and much money to become a licenced hunter is going to risk that along with valuable firearms by doing stupid things like shooting 'roos in front of witnesses.

Not only loss of licence but confiscation of all firearms, ammunition etc., and with no recompense and the mandatory loss of licence is for five years or more if the Commissioner thinks that it should not be reissued.
A bit of illegal hunting could easily cost a licence holder ten or twenty thousand dollars or more.
So the odds on illegal hunters being licenced is small and the odds that some of these illegal activities are being done to damage hunters is high, given the convenience with which they happen, and the frequency with which the antis in general are prone to mishandling the truth.
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#37 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:36 AM

View PostRoderick, on 20 August 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

That's just it there is no way to tell if the illegal shooters have licences but the odds are thatthey do not because of the potential loss if they are caught.
No one that has invested time and much money to become a licenced hunter is going to risk that along with valuable firearms by doing stupid things like shooting 'roos in front of witnesses.

Not only loss of licence but confiscation of all firearms, ammunition etc., and with no recompense and the mandatory loss of licence is for five years or more if the Commissioner thinks that it should not be reissued.
A bit of illegal hunting could easily cost a licence holder ten or twenty thousand dollars or more.
So the odds on illegal hunters being licenced is small and the odds that some of these illegal activities are being done to damage hunters is high, given the convenience with which they happen, and the frequency with which the antis in general are prone to mishandling the truth.

I don't see that it matters. Unlicensed shooters will happily pile in to hunt wherever it is allowed and think it is their right. So if some have to miss out due to this behaviour, so be it.

Again, alluding to conspiracy doesn't really make the case for reponsible hunters.
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#38 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:09 AM

View Postscotto, on 20 August 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I don't see that it matters. Unlicensed shooters will happily pile in to hunt wherever it is allowed and think it is their right. So if some have to miss out due to this behaviour, so be it.

Again, alluding to conspiracy doesn't really make the case for reponsible hunters.

Then they'll get caught and, most probably, from the reports of licenced hunters.

Conspiracy does make the case for the desperation of the anti brigade, especially after Shoebridge's and the Greens' desperate shewing with their pathetic petitions to the NSW Parliament.
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#39 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:18 AM

View PostRoderick, on 20 August 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Then they'll get caught and, most probably, from the reports of licenced hunters.

Conspiracy does make the case for the desperation of the anti brigade, especially after Shoebridge's and the Greens' desperate shewing with their pathetic petitions to the NSW Parliament.

Let's see some responsible gun owners actually do something about it, then. So far: nothing.

There is no evidence for any conspiracy of this nature whatsoever.
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#40 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:52 AM

View Postscotto, on 20 August 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Let's see some responsible gun owners actually do something about it, then. So far: nothing.

There is no evidence for any conspiracy of this nature whatsoever.


Let's wait till the licenced hunters go into National Parks, shall we?

How about the wallaby wounded with an arrow against all the laws of physics?
No one has explained that yet.

Then there is the sheer convenience, which is not evidence of conspiracy, but damned well timed.
Reminds me of the deep frozen dead ducks in Victoria that the protesters produced from the swamp to prove that hunters were shooting protected species.
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