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How about those gun laws? The US has clearly got it right - not!

#1 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:03 AM

News over the weekend of yet another gun massacrein the US. Clearly the US has major problems that are in part caused by its lax gun ownsership laws.

The same news source had this piece of analysis on the topic from an US ex-pat.
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#2 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:53 AM

The Denver shooting was another of the planned mass murders that occur all too frequently in most societies.
The fact that this particular one was done with guns is immaterial, the problem is that mass murderers will carry out their designs because they are either seeking a place in history or want revenge or are just plain crazy (or all of these).
More stringent gun laws are not going to make a whit of difference.

Japan has possibly the strictest gun laws in the world and yet,
the 1995 gas attacks on Tokyo subway killed 13 and injured thousands.
My link

It's not the method, it's the will to do murder.
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#3 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostRoderick, on 23 July 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

More stringent gun laws are not going to make a whit of difference.

Japan has possibly the strictest gun laws in the world and yet,
the 1995 gas attacks on Tokyo subway killed 13 and injured thousands.
My link

It's not the method, it's the will to do murder.


I'm undecided Roderick, and in reference to bringing in Tokyo and sarin, the difference would be availability.

If I were in the USA (or indeed, in Australia), it would be easier to buy a gun than to buy sarin (or some alternate WMD). Especially for an individual rather tnan for what was reportedly ten terrorists behind the subway attack. If LWL me found that there were no guns for sale, I'd not automatically be shopping for a nerve gas/agent.

Easy enough to kill a person or two one might think, but to kill significant numbers requires a significant weapon, and some firearms fit the bill.
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#4 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

View PostRoderick, on 23 July 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

The Denver shooting was another of the planned mass murders that occur all too frequently in most societies.
The fact that this particular one was done with guns is immaterial, the problem is that mass murderers will carry out their designs because they are either seeking a place in history or want revenge or are just plain crazy (or all of these).
More stringent gun laws are not going to make a whit of difference.

Japan has possibly the strictest gun laws in the world and yet,
the 1995 gas attacks on Tokyo subway killed 13 and injured thousands.
My link

It's not the method, it's the will to do murder.


Right. 1995.

How many mass gun-related deaths have their been in the US since that time? That's a very poor argument indeed. The fact that guns weren't used in that attack is an eloquent argument for better gun regulation in itself.
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#5 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:07 PM

View Postscotto, on 23 July 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Right. 1995.

How many mass gun-related deaths have their been in the US since that time? That's a very poor argument indeed. The fact that guns weren't used in that attack is an eloquent argument for better gun regulation in itself.

Not so, when guns have been used, in an environment where there is a chance of retaliation there are less deaths.

Whisky Au Go Go fire in Brisbane,15 dead.
Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire killed 15 backpackers.

Imagine, if you will, the result of a few gallons of petrol ignited in a crowded theatre; thankfully he didn't do that.
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#6 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:21 PM

Compared to how many dead in US massacres? And how many arson attacks in the US in the same period?
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#7 User is offline   icey 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:59 PM

View Postscotto, on 23 July 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Compared to how many dead in US massacres? And how many arson attacks in the US in the same period?


I think that the answer to your question lies in what (I think) is the corollary to Roderick's argument. Not too many arson attacks 'cos they've got guns to use instead!
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#8 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:01 PM

View Postscotto, on 23 July 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Compared to how many dead in US massacres? And how many arson attacks in the US in the same period?

There are less arson attacks than gun attacks in the USA, for which the Americans can be thankful although, one must admit, that the worst mass murders in Australian history were carried out mainly with guns, it is apparent that the victims didn't have any guns with which to defend themselves.

All this is beside the point however, society should be looking at ways of stopping mass murderers not concentrating or the means used in a vain attempt to stop them.

The greatest mass murder in US history was done with box-cutter knives and aeroplanes.

How many people have ever advocated more stringent rules on purchasing flammable liquids?
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#9 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:28 PM

Most gun deaths in the USA are not mass murders.
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#10 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 06:20 AM

View PostBam, on 23 July 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Most gun deaths in the USA are not mass murders.

What we are discussing is a very well planned mass murder, and further evidence of planning is shewn by his use of explosives and booby traps in his apartment.
We might also ponder why he chose to not kill himself or fight it out with the police, one theory is that he wants to enjoy his fame.
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#11 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:10 AM

View PostRoderick, on 24 July 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

What we are discussing is a very well planned mass murder, and further evidence of planning is shewn by his use of explosives and booby traps in his apartment.
We might also ponder why he chose to not kill himself or fight it out with the police, one theory is that he wants to enjoy his fame.

All beside the point that tens of thousands of people in the US are killed by guns every year.
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#12 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:40 AM

View Postscotto, on 24 July 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

All beside the point that tens of thousands of people in the US are killed by guns every year.


The discussion is about a planned mass murder, however if you wish to bring in other factors, the USA ranks about 14th in the world for gun homicides My link but 34th for all homicides.

Perhaps some other countries ought to be considered as examples before the USA?
My link
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#13 User is offline   HDMC 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:44 AM

Bit of stuff on The Drum you guys might find interesting.



Quote

Feral animals too great a problem to leave with shooters
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#14 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:29 AM

View PostHDMC, on 24 July 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Bit of stuff on The Drum you guys might find interesting.

Feral animals are indeed too great a problem to be left to shooters alone, what is needed is an integrated programme that takes in all the States and the Commonwealth, with positive input from all interested parties
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#15 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:50 AM

View PostRoderick, on 24 July 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Feral animals are indeed too great a problem to be left to shooters alone, what is needed is an integrated programme that takes in all the States and the Commonwealth, with positive input from all interested parties

But not open slather shooting with no controls or planning and oversight.

By the way, this is in the wrong thread.
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#16 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PostRoderick, on 24 July 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

The discussion is about a planned mass murder, however if you wish to bring in other factors, the USA ranks about 14th in the world for gun homicides My link but 34th for all homicides.

Perhaps some other countries ought to be considered as examples before the USA?
My link

No, the thread is about gun laws. Don't try to hijack it.

US gun laws make massacres, murders and suicides more likely.
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#17 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:15 PM

View Postscotto, on 24 July 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

No, the thread is about gun laws. Don't try to hijack it.

US gun laws make massacres, murders and suicides more likely.

No hijack intended but the OP focuses on the latest massacre.
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#18 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostRoderick, on 24 July 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

No hijack intended but the OP focuses on the latest massacre.

Actually, it focuses on gun laws, with the latest massacre as an example of the outcome of US gun laws.
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#19 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:20 PM

View Postscotto, on 24 July 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Actually, it focuses on gun laws, with the latest massacre as an example of the outcome of US gun laws.

Why is the massacre an outcome of US gun laws?
How did the laws push him over the accepted edge of human behavior?
Did any particular gun law cause him to choose a theatre for his outrage?
Which of the gun laws caused him to have an interest in explosives and detonating devices?
Which gun law caused him to booby trap his apartment?

Was it a gun law that decided him on dying his hair partly red?
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#20 User is offline   NotFrogman 

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostRoderick, on 24 July 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Why is the massacre an outcome of US gun laws?

Because it is so easy to get a gun in America, a mentally disturbed man was able to get one and open fire in a crowded cinema.

Quote

How did the laws push him over the accepted edge of human behaviour?
Disingenuous question. Irrelevant to anyone who has any sort of common sense.

Quote

Did any particular gun law cause him to choose a theatre for his outrage?
Disingenuous question. Irrelevant to anyone who has any sort of common sense.

Quote

Which of the gun laws caused him to have an interest in explosives and detonating devices?

Disingenuous question. Irrelevant to anyone who has any sort of common sense.

Quote

Which gun law caused him to booby trap his apartment?

Disingenuous question. Irrelevant to anyone who has any sort of common sense.

Quote

Was it a gun law that decided him on dying his hair partly red?

Disingenuous question. Irrelevant to anyone who has any sort of common sense.

Well, that was easy
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