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How about those gun laws? The US has clearly got it right - not!

#41 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:33 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

You have been saying that the firearm murder rate in the US is because of the gun laws, and I've said that the firearm murder rate in Australia is more than double that of New Zealand.

If it holds true that the US rate is due to their laws then the same must apply in Australia.

Or are there other factors involved?

Geee.... the last couple of times you trotted this argument out, it was obvious that you weren't comparing apples with apples, so has anything changed?

The thesis was: gun laws in the US contribute to the incidence of gun crimes, in this case, specifically massacres. Contribute - not sole cause - so you can keep beating that straw man, but that's all you're doing.

At this point you need to go back to a previous post.
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#42 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:41 AM

View Postscotto, on 25 July 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Geee.... the last couple of times you trotted this argument out, it was obvious that you weren't comparing apples with apples, so has anything changed?

The thesis was: gun laws in the US contribute to the incidence of gun crimes, in this case, specifically massacres. Contribute - not sole cause - so you can keep beating that straw man, but that's all you're doing.

At this point you need to go back to a previous post.


I would think that Australia and NZ, size apart, are comparable, apples = apples.

So why is our firearms murder rate over twice theirs?

If it's not the contribution of the gun laws then there must be other factors involved.

Re America:

Quote

Home alone in his two-story house, a man heard a knock at his door. Glancing out the window, he saw three men sneak around to the back sliding door. The sound of breaking glass made it clear that the men were entering the house. The homeowner went upstairs, locked himself in a bedroom and got his gun. At least one of the burglars approached the bedroom door and was about to enter when the resident opened fire, killing him. The other burglars fled, one of whom was nabbed by a responding officer’s police dog. (The News Tribune, Tacoma, Wash., 04/05/11)


Is this sort of thing justified?
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#43 User is offline   Bam 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:12 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

I would think that Australia and NZ, size apart, are comparable, apples = apples.

So why is our firearms murder rate over twice theirs?

I would think that the USA and Canada, size apart, are comparable, apples = apples.

So why do you think the firearms death rate of the USA is more than twice that of Canada?
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#44 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:18 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Re America:


Is this sort of thing justified?

You mean... he wasn't in a mall, or a shopping area, or a theatre, or a high school, or a college campus, or in any public place, so he wouldn't have needed gun laws that allowed him to carry a weapon in any of these places? Are you comparing fruit of like kind?

And you haven't answered another post, so I've copied the content here:

Furthermore, you say the people have the right to carry guns but apparently none of them do. It's ridiculous - you might as well say: take the guns off the people because no one carries guns anyway, and there is therefore no deterrent factor, which is your main argument. It seems that by your argument the only people carrying guns are the ones wanting to commit murders. Or suicide - but then - they would do that at home mostly, so that wouldn't count.
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#45 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:40 AM

View PostBam, on 25 July 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

I would think that the USA and Canada, size apart, are comparable, apples = apples.

So why do you think the firearms death rate of the USA is more than twice that of Canada?

Partly because of the presence of a large African-American population in the USA, who are involved in violent crime out of proportion with their numbers and because of the organized crime in the USA and the resultant drug problem, exacerbated because of the land border with a notoriously violent country, Mexico.

Mexico has stringent firearms laws, (far stricter than Australia's) yet the murder rate is about four times that of the US.

There may be other factors.
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#46 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:43 AM

View Postscotto, on 25 July 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

You mean... he wasn't in a mall, or a shopping area, or a theatre, or a high school, or a college campus, or in any public place, so he wouldn't have needed gun laws that allowed him to carry a weapon in any of these places? Are you comparing fruit of like kind?

And you haven't answered another post, so I've copied the content here:

Furthermore, you say the people have the right to carry guns but apparently none of them do. It's ridiculous - you might as well say: take the guns off the people because no one carries guns anyway, and there is therefore no deterrent factor, which is your main argument. It seems that by your argument the only people carrying guns are the ones wanting to commit murders. Or suicide - but then - they would do that at home mostly, so that wouldn't count.

I didn't say none of them do but that the majority of Americans don't carry concealed firearms; perhaps because they don't feel the need or can't be bothered jumping through the hoops to get a permit or simply can't afford the cost.
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#47 User is offline   NotFrogman 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:56 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Partly because of the presence of a large African-American population in the USA, who are involved in violent crime out of proportion with their numbers and because of the organized crime in the USA and the resultant drug problem, exacerbated because of the land border with a notoriously violent country, Mexico.

Mexico has stringent firearms laws, (far stricter than Australia's) yet the murder rate is about four times that of the US.

There may be other factors.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you serious? Are you really blaming the blacks and the Mexicans for America and Mexico's gun problems?

How ignorant of international politics are you? Have you heard of the drug war in Mexico? Do you know who Los Zeta, The Sinaloa, or the La Familias are? Do you know how they get their money/power?

There may by other factors indeed. If you are a complete recluse you may be excused for not knowing them. Are you a complete recluse?
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#48 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:59 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I didn't say none of them do but that the majority of Americans don't carry concealed firearms; ...

So... there's no deterrent factor.
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#49 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:59 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

There may be other factors.

You think?
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#50 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:02 AM

Quote

Aurora theater shooting: Gun sales up since tragedy
Firearm interest spikes as some seek protection


UPDATED: 07/24/2012 10:57:05 AM MDTBy Sara Burnett
The Denver Post
Jul 24:

Background checks for people wanting to buy guns in Colorado jumped more than 41 percent after Friday morning's shooting at an Aurora movie theater, and firearms instructors say they're also seeing increased interest in the training required for a concealed-carry permit.
Denver Post
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#51 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:06 AM

View Postscotto, on 25 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

So... there's no deterrent factor.

Of course there is a deterrent factor, no one knows who is carrying concealed and where Americans exercise their right to carry OPENLY then there is very little violent crime.
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#52 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:09 AM

Quote

Notfrogman wrote,

"You have got to be kidding me. Are you serious? Are you really blaming the blacks and the Mexicans for America and Mexico's gun problems?"


Who do you blame for Mexico's gun problems?
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#53 User is offline   NotFrogman 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:10 AM

I am truly amazed that a seemingly logical and rational person thinks that the cure for gun related crime is more guns.
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#54 User is offline   NotFrogman 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:10 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

where Americans exercise their right to carry OPENLY then there is very little violent crime.

Im gonna need a citation on this one.
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#55 User is offline   NotFrogman 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:11 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Who do you blame for Mexico's gun problems?

A variety of causes, but primarily the US led war on drugs.
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#56 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:31 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Of course there is a deterrent factor, no one knows who is carrying concealed and where Americans exercise their right to carry OPENLY then there is very little violent crime.

Such as? That's just a wild claim without any support whatsoever.
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#57 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:32 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Partly because of the presence of a large African-American population in the USA, who are involved in violent crime out of proportion with their numbers and because of the organized crime in the USA and the resultant drug problem, exacerbated because of the land border with a notoriously violent country, Mexico.

Still with "the blacks and coloureds" theory, eh? No reply needed to that.
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#58 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:33 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Of course there is a deterrent factor, no one knows who is carrying concealed and where Americans exercise their right to carry OPENLY then there is very little violent crime.

But you just said most don't carry. So - no deterrent.
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#59 User is offline   Roderick 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:06 AM

View Postscotto, on 25 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

But you just said most don't carry. So - no deterrent.

But as criminals don't know who is carrying then there is a deterrent, where there is open carry there is a distinct deterrent.
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This post has been edited by Bam: 25 July 2012 - 05:35 PM
Reason for edit: Fix up broken BB code

Self-defence is not only a Right, it is an Obligation.
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#60 User is offline   scotto 

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostRoderick, on 25 July 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

View Postscotto, on 25 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

But you just said most don't carry. So - no deterrent.

But as criminals don't know who is carrying then there is a deterrent, where there is open carry there is a distinct deterrent.

Deterrent - how is this evident? There is no evidence whatsoever for this. It is obviosuly not working in malls, college campuses, theatres and, well, any public area.

"Distinct deterrent" - how and where? - you haven't answered a number of posts asking this.
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